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06 Dec 2022, 23:52 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Autoland
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2022, 16:39 
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Location: Augsburg , Europe (EDMQ)
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I know endless debates in this forum about the chute but very less about autoland?

As far as I know, certified now in the Vision Jet, TBM940 and the M600?
All upper class $$$$$ and mainly owner flown planes!

Does anyone knows the limitations of autoland?

The only thing I know out of brochures and you tube videos, that it will do all the necessary things to land the plane safely, if you are enroute, get incapacitated and a passenger pushes the button.

Are there any altitude limitations like published for a chute pull?

If you are on an ILS approach, maybe only 1000 or 500ft to go and you push that button?
Will it abort the approach, climb and search for a suitable airport with a GPS approach?
What happens in such a situation?

Will it even land in 0/0 conditions?

Would appreciate more information about the system limitations, to get a better picture about the value.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2022, 18:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
As far as I know, certified now in the Vision Jet, TBM940 and the M600?
All upper class $$$$$ and mainly owner flown planes!

And planes for which annual training is the norm. This means use of autoland will be very rare, just like use of the chute in SF50 has been non existent so far. A well trained pilot is and has always been the best way to be safe.

Quote:
Does anyone knows the limitations of autoland?

I don't know but there's no technical reason it couldn't be useful at any time.

Quote:
The only thing I know out of brochures and you tube videos, that it will do all the necessary things to land the plane safely, if you are enroute, get incapacitated and a passenger pushes the button.

As fearful as pilot incapacitation is to passengers, it happens VERY rarely when the passengers are not also incapacitated.

Quote:
If you are on an ILS approach, maybe only 1000 or 500ft to go and you push that button?
Will it abort the approach, climb and search for a suitable airport with a GPS approach?
What happens in such a situation?

All very good questions that don't seem the be answered anywhere. The ideal response is that it completes the approach. My expectation is that it will climb and reset. Would be an interesting experiment to try.

Quote:
Will it even land in 0/0 conditions?

I think so since I don't think it has any visual sensors. I think it is GPS and radar altimeter only for aircraft control.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2022, 05:22 
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A nice summary on the subject:

https://www.easa.europa.eu/community/topics/emergency-autoland-0

I've already stated my opinion in another thread: it is an impressive system developed for emergency situations in mind, when you are more than happy to trade the high probability to die with a chance to survive.

It is not developed up to the Safety and Reliability levels required for a day-by-day routine use, and shall not be confused with those systems.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2022, 12:42 
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I think it is GPS and radar altimeter only for aircraft control.


What will it do if it gets to an airport and a 5G cell site interferes with the radar altimeter?
Is the RA used to mainly to flair the aircraft? Then hopefully it will be so close to the ground that it will manage the event. :shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 10:05 
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Received the attached information from Garmin


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 10:50 
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The logic is reasonably well thought out. That being said, it cannot foresee every contingency, so there will be times it does the wrong thing. The hope is that those times are far less than the the time lacking autoland would lead to disaster.

From the logic, it sounds like under 1000 ft AGL is an automatic climb (at least for latest software release) and then the selection logic starts. So if you are on an approach, I think it would climb first and then go through the decision logic.

Honestly, that's probably the right decision because assessing if the current approach can continue is a much harder question than abort and find one that matches the selection criteria. For one thing, the current approach may not have vertical guidance or may be to a runway that is too short or narrow.

I am impressed with the system, but in the end, I think it will be used "for real" in VERY few cases and the vast majority of those will be pilot (rather than passenger) initiated. I suspect the dominant situation could be low IMC, say widespread below minimums, and the pilot lets the autoland take it to the runway.

I also think it won't be quite as influential to pilot decision making as the chute, though the effect won't be zero, either. This remains to be seen. It is good that there is no "practice" mode to this, you really don't want pilots playing with it and becoming habituated to how it works. It needs to be a real full blown emergency to activate it.

I don't believe anyone has started a "save" log for autoland like there is for the chute. We may never hear of times when it is used. Those cases would be interesting to discuss. No "save" may have occurred as of yet.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 11:17 
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I wonder what happens at the end of the flight when the system is activated. Perhaps Garmin requires a system reset (dealer performed) before the avionics will go back to normal mode?
Or could one simply cycle power and the avionics go back to normal?

My guess is that they want to know when it’s used and thus some sort of reset is required. That would also prevent it being used in a casual and frequent capacity.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 12:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't believe anyone has started a "save" log for autoland like there is for the chute. We may never hear of times when it is used. Those cases would be interesting to discuss. No "save" may have occurred as of yet.

Mike C.

Part of the Autoland process is that the system will squawk 7700, I believe. In that case, plenty of people will get alerts through FlightRadar24 and other sites. I'm sure one of those models squawking 7700 will get plenty of attention, here and elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 14:04 
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Will it activate deice equipment?


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 14:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Honestly, that's probably the right decision because assessing if the current approach can continue is a much harder question than abort and find one that matches the selection criteria. For one thing, the current approach may not have vertical guidance or may be to a runway that is too short or narrow.

Not if the system was constantly shadowing pilot and precalculating if countinuing current flight path could be used. E.g. if pilots activates approach that fits the autoland criteria and flies that on autopilot the computer should be smart enough to 'autoland' from that approach.

Another thing though is the communication part. The fact that the airplane is capable of finishing the approach doesn't mean that it should - in real emergency it is as much as important to get safely on the ground as it is to get somebody on the ground time to prepare to react and help. I would expect that if an airplane on short final suddenly start squawking 7700 and just auto lands and parks in the middle of the runway there is going to be one hell of a mess around it and help to the occupants might actually be delayed.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 15:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
The logic is reasonably well thought out. That being said, it cannot foresee every contingency, so there will be times it does the wrong thing. The hope is that those times are far less than the the time lacking autoland would lead to disaster.


From a Safety perspective, if Autoland is activated it means that the Catastrophic event has already happened. This is the reason why I'm sure the system, although still impressive, was not developed to the same HW/SW Design Assurance Levels (DAL A, B, C etc. for DO-178/254) required for a system that could lead to a Catastrophic Event (eg. An Air Data Computer) as resulting from the aircraft Functional Hazard Assessment (FHA).

A Certified DAL A Autoland system is very expensive, complex, has redundancy and the demonstrated reliability allows day-by-day use. Still, it needs Pilots supervision for the entire approach, down to the last feet...


Last edited on 05 Jan 2022, 15:23, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 15:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Will it activate deice equipment?


According to my info, it interfaces to:
Autopilot
Autothrottle
Com Radio
Transponder
Fuel Shut-Off
Brakes

Edit: It is a piece of SW embedded in the system, so it can interface to every piece of equipment it is interconnected. Probably it is better to say "it operates" those equipment, using the available navigation sensors.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 15:26 
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"emergency" autoland is the camels nose. This is a proving run for unpiloted or less-piloted aircraft.

Semi-piloted part 91 single-engine ops is going to be a much easier regulatory sell than airliners. And a HUGE market.


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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 20:31 
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This system, if used as intended will never be touched by the pilot, and the cases of it being activated will be vanishingly rare. That said, it is a huge marketing point for pilots with nervous passengers. If my Baron had it, my wife would be delighted to fly with me anywhere. She still flies on some trips, but is nervous. A red button would allow her to relax. She’s not afraid of the wing falling off, but if I’m inop it’s a big deal in a plane without a ‘chute.

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 Post subject: Re: Autoland
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 20:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Will it activate deice equipment?

Yes it will


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