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06 Jul 2022, 01:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021, 23:52 
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Call Neal Schwartz. Done. Easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 01:26 
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Joined: 12/10/07
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Location: St. Pete, FL
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One can argue the value of a broker either way. They certainly have their goods and bads.

Personally I like to control the sale. I don't like to hear things like "we must have a deposit to see the plane" or it tool "8 months in a sellers market to sell" or I get tied up without an option to escape if I'm not happy.

And the fact that that are no regulations, licensing or code of ethics for aircraft brokers (and most boat brokers), it puts all of the caution and responsibility on the seller. It's "sellers beware".

I've seen way more incompetent brokers (of all kinds) than good ones.

Now if one isn't familiar with the buying and selling process and is really uncomfortable negotiating, a broker could make sense.

Yes, I've used the at times both buying and selling (for houses, boats and planes), but the vast majority of deals I've done myself. And, I've never put down a deposit prior to seeing nor signed a contract.... over 100 houses and 40 planes and boats.... and rarely a problems (only with the brokers).

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 09:56 
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
There is no "right" answer. I'll say that Larry's post makes about as much sense as any posted here. Paul seems to be very professional, but his requirement of a contract before "seeing the airplane" means he and I will simply never do business.

Hiring a broker does not eliminate the owner's work. He still has to respond. The big difference in successfully selling your own airplane as opposed to being hounded by tire kickers is simple: qualify your buyer, and don't be the least shy about sending the BS'ers packing.

I got a call a couple of weeks ago on a small boutique commercial center I own. The potential buyer was actually legitimate to a point. The point was that he simply did not have adequate funds for the deposit on a three million dollar deal. The second point is that he sees the purchase of income producing property in the same light as haggling on a used truck.

I told him the price was a 9% cap rate on gross less T & I less 15% maintenance. $5,000 to see the rent rolls refunded only if I misrepresented the amounts. Not interested in his opinion of value or offered. That qualified him pretty quickly.

Selling potatoes, carrots, airplanes or real estate. Not that much different.

Qualify your seller too. I called on an airplane that has been for sale for $325,000 for eleven months. At the appropriate point, I said that the only sure thing is that after being on the market for that price for that period, we knew that the value was not $325,000. The gentleman did not agree. End of conversation.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2021, 17:03 
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JGG,

So, how do you qualify a buyer? Sure you can ask some pointed questions, but until you get to know him a bit, hard to tell. I've had guys that looked like they didn't have two nickles to rub together buy my boat, because I "sold" it to him. Told him why he needed it and how good he would look in it. Took it no negotiations and no conditions. And, I've had tire kickers that looked like they could buy half of the town. Nicely dressed, intelligent, nice car, not extravagant, but after a short visit, it was a no go.

A few things I've learned..... If someone travels a far distance, puts a real effort out and has some time invested, they're likely to have interest. Someone that wants to stop by on short notice, knows little about what I'm selling, and (worse), brings a friend with. Nope.

Yes, I ask for a deposit, if I have to take it off the market... usually non refundable that applies to the purchase price, which some exceptions. One exception, is that I'd allow the time for an inspection.

Over the years, have had excellent luck buying and selling on my own account, and excellent luck with a few choice brokers. However, generally 85% of the brokers and sales people aren't worth the time of day.

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Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2021, 08:21 
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Joined: 10/12/15
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Location: KCAK
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All depends on your appetite for involvement. Folks on BT rave about Neal, and he’ll handle the spectrum from digitizing of logs, placement of ads, run interference, etc. Also consider George Johnson, owner of Carolina Aircraft. Honest guys, well connected. Same for Bruce Watts. All these guys handle the paperwork at closing…again, not too terribly daunting, but some folks would rather offload those sorts of issues. Like most things in life, everything comes at a price. If you’re going the broker route, there are still some good ones still left in this world…and plenty of roaches.

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2021, 09:20 
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Joined: 11/25/11
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Larry,

Considering your posts and question about qualifying. It might be interesting to start a thread on how different people do that with airplanes; a checklist so to speak.

I'm pretty sure we could all learn from each other.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2021, 09:34 
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Joined: 11/25/11
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
I had another "broker experience" on Tuesday. Maybe I'm too critical, but you be the judge.

My quest for a twin for xc use has been most unfruitful. My fault? To a degree, but on Monday the 8th airplane that I have pursued got pushed aside. There was a corrosion question and I wanted a picture of the area, which had supposedly been properly addressed, before I spent money on a pre-buy. After four weeks of asking, I said "good bye".

Now, to the newest broker incident. On Tuesday, I called a well known broker about an airplane I have seen advertised for at least 5 months. The price had been dropped, but it was never in "pie in the sky" land to start with. I had not called on this airplane mainly because of location: a good distance from here. The broker returned my call after 24 hours. I told him I was interested in the airplane. He said that he had had a contract on it but the day before the buyer backed out because he could not get insurance. Then, he says that he has had 30 calls on the airplane in two days. Fifteen calls a day on an airplane that he has had for sale for over 5 months.

You think I'm going further with that BS being set out on the first call?

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2021, 11:36 
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Aircraft: Bonanza V35
Neighbor is dying of cancer. Decided to list his house instead of selling it himself to help with the schedule and not burden his wife.

Buyer's agent shows the house and makes a full price cash offer subject to no contingencies. Seller's listing agent agrees to a $6k deposit which is ridiculous on a $600k home.

Seller moves all of their furniture out of the home since it is cash without contingencies. 3 days before closing Buyer's agent says buyer is backing out of deal due to not having the money to pay for the home. To add insult to injury Buyer's agent also says there is no $6k deposit since the check was never cashed. Seller gets screwed because listing agent and buyer's agents are incompetent. The seller relied on the agents doing what is right considering they were getting a $30k payday.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2021, 11:51 
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Joined: 05/09/18
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Location: Tucson, AZ
Aircraft: 1980 TR182
Username Protected wrote:
Neighbor is dying of cancer. Decided to list his house instead of selling it himself to help with the schedule and not burden his wife.

Buyer's agent shows the house and makes a full price cash offer subject to no contingencies. Seller's listing agent agrees to a $6k deposit which is ridiculous on a $600k home.

Seller moves all of their furniture out of the home since it is cash without contingencies. 3 days before closing Buyer's agent says buyer is backing out of deal due to not having the money to pay for the home. To add insult to injury Buyer's agent also says there is no $6k deposit since the check was never cashed. Seller gets screwed because listing agent and buyer's agents are incompetent. The seller relied on the agents doing what is right considering they were getting a $30k payday.


In Arizona, real estate agents essentially have a license to practice law without being attorneys. It is beyond annoying dealing with most realtors here.

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Stan Kartchner
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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2021, 15:44 
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Joined: 12/10/07
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Location: St. Pete, FL
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Username Protected wrote:
Neighbor is dying of cancer. Decided to list his house instead of selling it himself to help with the schedule and not burden his wife.

Buyer's agent shows the house and makes a full price cash offer subject to no contingencies. Seller's listing agent agrees to a $6k deposit which is ridiculous on a $600k home.

Seller moves all of their furniture out of the home since it is cash without contingencies. 3 days before closing Buyer's agent says buyer is backing out of deal due to not having the money to pay for the home. To add insult to injury Buyer's agent also says there is no $6k deposit since the check was never cashed. Seller gets screwed because listing agent and buyer's agents are incompetent. The seller relied on the agents doing what is right considering they were getting a $30k payday.


Wow, the realtor should be held responsible, and code of ethics would probably support that.

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Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2021, 09:22 
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Joined: 09/15/12
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Location: Bloomington, MN
Aircraft: Beech D17S, 58P, RC3
In my opinion, brokers, like realtors, are becoming more and more like lamp lighters on the street lamps.

I've been trying to buy a plane lately. Seller's brokers have not seen the plane at all, logs not digitized so they can be viewed, and just a few crummy photos that the owner sent.

Broker tells me plane is all working, I go do a prebuy and find a long list of broken stuff, inspections expired, etc. I send this list to the broker with an offer. It gets declined, and the Brokers listing just goes on listing the plane as all log books there when they are not, nothing broken when it clearly is, etc.

My point is in my opinion, the brokers take the few photos they get from the seller, post them on the 5-6 internet sites along with condition they have not verified, then do nothing except answer the phone. Some don't even do that. I sent 4 messages via phone and email to Lafferty Aircraft Sale for example, they never even replied.


In my opinion a seller is wasting their money on brokers these days.


Thats my 2 cents. I would NEVER hire a buyers broker.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2021, 09:37 
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Joined: 10/06/09
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Location: KBJC - Denver
Aircraft: Mooney M20K 252
I've worked closely with Scott Hager at OnCenterline.net. The last couple of airplanes I've seen him sell, he sold for more than the seller was asking. A good broker will know how to get the most for your airplane. Much like a good realtor will know how to get the most for your house. Of course there are also sellers who have a very unrealistically high opinion of their hangar queen and a good broker will help them reset expectations and actually get the plane sold rather than continue sitting and losing value as it rots into the ramp. It goes without saying, but as it's an unregulated business, you need to be careful about who you work with.

I know Scott puts a ton of work into every airplane he sells, and it shows in the prices he gets for them. I make my living in sales, and we all know one of the best ways to get the best price is to take the friction out of the sale. Scott and I'm sure other good brokers, do that very well.

Regarding fees, the brokers I know charge a higher percentage for a sub $100k airplane than for a higher value airplane. Something like 10% on a $50K airplane and 5% on a $300K airplane. And that reflects the fact that a lot of work goes into selling each airplane regardless of the value.

I wouldn't hesitate to find a good broker to sell your plane. Scott will for example, go through the logs with a fine tooth comb and make sure all AD's are complied with and any red flags have quality explanations to go with them. He'll take a lot of high quality pictures of the plane for advertising. He'll personally fly the plane to make sure he knows exactly what works and what doesn't. If he feels something can be repaired that will make a significant difference, he'll arrange for the repair quickly by working with various shops who know him and will work with him.

He'll earn his commission as will any good broker.

Just my $0.02


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2021, 10:11 
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Joined: 03/04/14
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Location: FREDERICKSBURG TX
Aircraft: MOONEY M20TN
Username Protected wrote:
Neighbor is dying of cancer. Decided to list his house instead of selling it himself to help with the schedule and not burden his wife.

Buyer's agent shows the house and makes a full price cash offer subject to no contingencies. Seller's listing agent agrees to a $6k deposit which is ridiculous on a $600k home.

Seller moves all of their furniture out of the home since it is cash without contingencies. 3 days before closing Buyer's agent says buyer is backing out of deal due to not having the money to pay for the home. To add insult to injury Buyer's agent also says there is no $6k deposit since the check was never cashed. Seller gets screwed because listing agent and buyer's agents are incompetent. The seller relied on the agents doing what is right considering they were getting a $30k payday.


Wow, the realtor should be held responsible, and code of ethics would probably support that.


That's why a good Realtor would require proof of funds before putting their Seller's house under contract on a cash offer (or proof of funds for the down payment and pre-approval letter on a financed deal). Both Seller and Buyer should want an inspection period. Once that period passes and both parties move forward the earnest money becomes non-refundable and now there is skin in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2021, 11:13 
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Aircraft: Bonanza V35
I agree. With that said, inspections are not happening here. If you want an inspection you will go to the bottom of the list of the multiple cash offers.

A good realtor would have asked for $30k down (and deposited) non-refundable on a AS-IS/Cash offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Broker Cost
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2021, 14:09 
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Joined: 03/13/18
Posts: 167
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Aircraft: Piper Mirage
Username Protected wrote:
I had another "broker experience" on Tuesday. Maybe I'm too critical, but you be the judge.

My quest for a twin for xc use has been most unfruitful. My fault? To a degree, but on Monday the 8th airplane that I have pursued got pushed aside. There was a corrosion question and I wanted a picture of the area, which had supposedly been properly addressed, before I spent money on a pre-buy. After four weeks of asking, I said "good bye".

Now, to the newest broker incident. On Tuesday, I called a well known broker about an airplane I have seen advertised for at least 5 months. The price had been dropped, but it was never in "pie in the sky" land to start with. I had not called on this airplane mainly because of location: a good distance from here. The broker returned my call after 24 hours. I told him I was interested in the airplane. He said that he had had a contract on it but the day before the buyer backed out because he could not get insurance. Then, he says that he has had 30 calls on the airplane in two days. Fifteen calls a day on an airplane that he has had for sale for over 5 months.

You think I'm going further with that BS being set out on the first call?

Jg



I know you remember The Rule of Shelley’s Case. Anything is possible but even if true that puts a sour taste in my mouth as well.


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