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17 Aug 2022, 11:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2021, 16:16 
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So I *did* sign the NDA, and have access to the dataroom. It's interesting to say the least. Compelling? Yeah, maybe with someone else's money. With my money? I'd offer far less than the 15mm they're asking. There *is* value there. That said, Mooney has long suffered from a lack of strategic direction. Looking under the hood just confirms that.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2021, 17:02 
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Aircraft: 700P, F35, D17
The problem with Mooney, and this has been seen through multiple owners and bankruptcies, is that it is just too difficult to produce, market, sell and service the product at profitable volumes. Every combination that they have tried (Butler Cement/Aerostar/Mitsubishi/and even nearly TBM) failed to achieve commercial success. Believe it or not Mooney even had a single engine pressurized airplane called the Mooney Mustang that ended production almost as quickly as it started. Mooney kept building the same airplane because it was the only way to pay the bills.

As much as I dislike the Cirrus SR fleet you do have to give them credit for thinking outside the box and bringing a clean sheet design to the market. Mooney's latest effort, by adding dual cabin doors, was a good try but at its core the plane was still being manufactured in the old school way and didn't have the parachute that is a great marketing tool regardless of whether or not it is really safer. And, to make the point crystal clear of the age of the "factory" just tour the factory and you can still see the glue drips on the floor from where they used to laminate wooden wings in the earliest days of the airplane.

To be clear, and out of respect for my Mooney Eagle N56FM which I loved, I am as disappointed as anyone that this long storied brand is in such difficulty but lots of various people have tried, and failed, to save it. Once the Chinese Group decided, with all their vast resources, that it did not make sense to them to continue to feed the bear the noose was hoisted to the gallows for Mooney. The Duesenberg was a great car, and they even tried to resurrect it a few times with the Duesenberg II but, alas, we all really like to drive cars that are more modern.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2021, 20:04 
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Aircraft: B33, M20C,170A,SU26
I think you could say almost the same things noted in this thread if the bonanza 33/35 line was listed for sale. Both are out of production and would be very labor intensive to build. Textron only builds maybe a dozen a yr of the bigger 36 (G36).
If the 33/35 rights were for sale, what would you pay for it?
These are all just surviving on the existing planes and that shrinks each year, sadly.
I like both my m20c and B33 but both are / would be complex to manufacture.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2021, 14:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think you could say almost the same things noted in this thread if the bonanza 33/35 line was listed for sale. Both are out of production and would be very labor intensive to build. Textron only builds maybe a dozen a yr of the bigger 36 (G36).
If the 33/35 rights were for sale, what would you pay for it?
These are all just surviving on the existing planes and that shrinks each year, sadly.
I like both my m20c and B33 but both are / would be complex to manufacture.

In the first half of 2021 Textron has build zero (0) Bonanza G36 and zero (0) Baron G58. It appears that no one is paying for it....


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 11:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think you could say almost the same things noted in this thread if the bonanza 33/35 line was listed for sale. Both are out of production and would be very labor intensive to build. Textron only builds maybe a dozen a yr of the bigger 36 (G36).
If the 33/35 rights were for sale, what would you pay for it?
These are all just surviving on the existing planes and that shrinks each year, sadly.
I like both my m20c and B33 but both are / would be complex to manufacture.

In the first half of 2021 Textron has build zero (0) Bonanza G36 and zero (0) Baron G58. It appears that no one is paying for it....


I wonder if that is due to a supply chain issue. If not then it’s very telling.
Especially in light of recent pricing and availability of used aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2021, 11:55 
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Username Protected wrote:

I wonder if that is due to a supply chain issue. If not then it’s very telling.
Especially in light of recent pricing and availability of used aircraft.


They build the Bonanza and Baron in the same building they build the Longitude and Latitude. As I recall from talking to the Beech rep they're going to build 16 total Baron/Bonanza (8 of each) this year.

What I don't know is if that means 16 deliveries, or if they manufacture 16 data tags, so they can claim continuous production.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 14:40 
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One of the problems Mooney has, besides high building costs, is the plane is just too small and cramped. Last time I flew in a 201, I was just shocked at how small the interior was. Climbing out of my 1967 V35 into the 201 was a HUGE downgrade in comfort. Now you have the Cirrus, which is wider and more comfortable than the Bo, and the Mooney just doesn’t stand a chance. People are substantially larger than 40 years ago. Mooney never did evolve with the market. Efficient, yes, well built, yes, comfortable, no way.

Chris C.

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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 15:05 
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To each his own Chris. I'm 6'1 & 1/2" and will fly almost anything. My son is 6'4" and can't fly a C210, Piper Meridian/class nope to either of us, nor any Bo no seat adjustment, hits head, hits knees etc. But I can ride in the back seat as can he behind me/him in a Mooney long body while the other is flying. Not a 201 but the Ovation size. Wider than the Bonanza and more leg room. Faster and more efficient. Perhaps take a ride in one that is not 30+ years old? :peace: Before you trounce all over 7,000 plane owners.

Though I'd be much happier in a TBM again for long distance travel to communicate to the airlines/TSA to -off... :coffee:

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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 17:52 
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Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KAPA
Aircraft: C340A, C441
$15M for that amount of real estate and some half finished planes and equipment someone could sell sounds like a decent deal.

Not sure the parts business is worth the capital cost on that facility. Seems ripe for liquidation.

As much as I love Mooney, I just don't see anyone looking at an SR22 and Acclaim and then buying the Acclaim, even if they solved the gross weight issue (which is a major problem) and added a parachute. The plane is only part of it, Cirrus has a huge instructor network, support, etc. The extra 20 knots isn't nearly enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 18:05 
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Could the M22 be properly engined, updated, and made viable?

It would take someone with Mike Patey's engineering prowess, Elon Musk's economic bravery, and Steve Job's obsession.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 18:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Could the M22 be properly engined, updated, and made viable?

It would take someone with Mike Patey's engineering prowess, Elon Musk's economic bravery, and Steve Job's obsession.


The biggest problem I see is the cabin is too small and it has less than great forward visibility. Those aren't things easily solved keeping the existing airframe. Even if they could bump out the cabin, it would lose some of its only selling point, speed and efficiency. Way back when these planes cost the equivalent of a Cadillac, buyers were looking at things more reasonably. Now a typical buyer for a 7 figure Cirrus is looking for neon paint, a keyfob that unlocks the doors, and a nice looking roomy (relatively) cabin and air conditioning. They don't care about the superior hand flying characteristics or the stronger airframe or the lower fuel burn.

They also have to compete with the R&D budgets of Diamond and Cirrus, both of whom are selling more planes than they can build and are not standing still. I don't think there is an investor who would think competing for the small market with those companies is a smart idea. The risk is sky high and the reward is modest.

Ironically I think one of the problems with aviation startups is how much people love aviation, and are willing to take unreasonable risks to launch products. That makes it hard for a disciplined investor to fund a new project.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 18:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
The biggest problem I see is the cabin is too small and it has less than great forward visibility.
Are you talking about the M22 or M20 airframe? I thought the M22 had a somewhat larger cabin.


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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2021, 23:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
The biggest problem I see is the cabin is too small and it has less than great forward visibility.
Are you talking about the M22 or M20 airframe? I thought the M22 had a somewhat larger cabin.


Sorry, I meant M20. I doubt they have the ability to build the M22 anymore, it would need at least a moderate redesign with new parts suppliers, tooling, etc.

M350 would be hard to compete with.

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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 11:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
To each his own Chris. I'm 6'1 & 1/2" and will fly almost anything. My son is 6'4" and can't fly a C210, Piper Meridian/class nope to either of us, nor any Bo no seat adjustment, hits head, hits knees etc. But I can ride in the back seat as can he behind me/him in a Mooney long body while the other is flying. Not a 201 but the Ovation size. Wider than the Bonanza and more leg room. Faster and more efficient. Perhaps take a ride in one that is not 30+ years old? :peace: Before you trounce all over 7,000 plane owners.:


But we are pilots and we will put up with some level of discomfort because we like to fly.

Do what I've done for sales. Put the Mooney, a Cirrus, and a Bonanza side by side, and have non-pilots sit in them.
The Cirrus wins every time, first, because it's easy to get in and out of. Second, because the cabin is big and uncluttered. Some of the women didn't even attempt to get in the back seats of the Mooney, or the Bonanza. You can simply step into the back of a Cirrus and sit down, no contortions needed.

For what it's worth, the 7000 Mooneys over 50 years, have already been eclipsed by 8000 Cirrus owners in less than half that time. This is what any potential Mooney factory buyer has to reckon with.

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 Post subject: Re: Mooney For Sale ...... Again
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 23:38 
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I always liked the 201. If you fit in it (yes , you wear it, not get in it) is a very efficient fast cruiser, with a low cost 4-cylinder engine.

It was not a bonanza, but it wasn't trying to be. More like an extremely fast Cherokee.

Everyone will have an opinion but I think Mooney's mistake was trying to become bonanza competition, rather than being cheap to fly and fast.


Username Protected wrote:
One of the problems Mooney has, besides high building costs, is the plane is just too small and cramped. Last time I flew in a 201, I was just shocked at how small the interior was. Climbing out of my 1967 V35 into the 201 was a HUGE downgrade in comfort. Now you have the Cirrus, which is wider and more comfortable than the Bo, and the Mooney just doesn’t stand a chance. People are substantially larger than 40 years ago. Mooney never did evolve with the market. Efficient, yes, well built, yes, comfortable, no way.

Chris C.


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