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 Post subject: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 14:12 
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Location: New Braunfels, TX
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A few months ago, I posted I was going to swap my 425 Conquest for a B200. Instead, we upgraded our condo in Colorado for a bigger one. So now I'm facing a hot-section inspection, due in 138 hours or about four months.

My friend with a 425 suggests I start looking for a facility now. He says he is currently getting hosed by Dallas Airmotive on his -135's.

This will be the third HSI for these engines - PT6A-112's. Engine times are:

TSMOH – 5060 (both engines)
TS Hots – 1661.3

I am told to expect a repair bill between $150K to $200K per engine.

Considering this is a 36 year-old airplane on it's third HSI, where is the best place to go for this inspection?

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 14:21 
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Joined: 05/31/13
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I’d recommend Prime Turbines. There’s no reason to use a DOF for a 40 yr old conquest.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 15:34 
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Try Air Force turbines in Texas. I’ve found them to be a very reasonable pt6 shop.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 16:02 
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Call Tom Welch at 208-596-0647

https://www.covingtonaircraft.com/

Best service at best price!


Last edited on 12 Oct 2021, 16:04, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 16:03 
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Joined: 11/08/12
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
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Username Protected wrote:
I am told to expect a repair bill between $150K to $200K per engine.

Considering this is a 36 year-old airplane on it's third HSI, where is the best place to go for this inspection?

You may want to check with Blackhawk about upgrading to -135s. I've been told that given their relatively generous trade-in valuations plus increase in aircraft value it can be a pretty good deal.

That said.... I've not spec'd it out personally, this is merely rumor.... But it's a thought for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 16:19 
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Location: Little Rock, Ar
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Specialty Turbine Service in Pennsylvania. Paul Jones. You do have a spec sheet built up for each engine, don’t you? If so, it’s much easier to quantify going in.
Dallas Airmotive was bought by competitor Standard Aero earlier this year, effectively shrinking the MRO engine biz some more. The purchase price was reported to have been 230mm. Dallas Airmotive annual rev was approximately 500mm. You can expect the new entity to need to service that expense. Call Paul.

Robert T


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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 16:46 
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I spoke with David Ponce at Prime Turbines in Dallas.

They will come to my hangar, remove the engines and reinstall them two weeks later (so he claims). He said for me to budget about $50K for each engine.

Sounds like a deal to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 16:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
You may want to check with Blackhawk about upgrading to -135s. I've been told that given their relatively generous trade-in valuations plus increase in aircraft value it can be a pretty good deal.

West Star told me if I could find used -135A engines, they would install them under the Blackhawk STC for $35K plus the cost of installation.

If I could find a pair of -135A's with fresh Hots for $250K each, plus about $100K for the STC plus installation, that would be about $600K. I figure the airplane is worth around $600K as it is now with fresh Hots on the -112's.

I just don't think the airplane would be worth $1.2M after I did all that. I'm thinking more like $700-$800K. What are your thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 23:12 
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Username Protected wrote:

I just don't think the airplane would be worth $1.2M after I did all that. I'm thinking more like $700-$800K. What are your thoughts?

I don’t know the Conquest market, so you’d need to look around and see if there was a comparable of some sort. But… it’s conceivable that valuation might be possible. Used to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 23:25 
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Conquest prices have been going up. They are asking $925k for this non Blackhawk airplane: https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... p-aircraft

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2021, 21:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
You may want to check with Blackhawk about upgrading to -135s. I've been told that given their relatively generous trade-in valuations plus increase in aircraft value it can be a pretty good deal.

West Star told me if I could find used -135A engines, they would install them under the Blackhawk STC for $35K plus the cost of installation.

If I could find a pair of -135A's with fresh Hots for $250K each, plus about $100K for the STC plus installation, that would be about $600K. I figure the airplane is worth around $600K as it is now with fresh Hots on the -112's.

I just don't think the airplane would be worth $1.2M after I did all that. I'm thinking more like $700-$800K. What are your thoughts?


My buddy is got his back after the first buyer decided he found a cheaper plane, he did the engines and put 5 blade props on, new buyer signed for 1.2m today.

Two years ago he was offered $700k cash. He turned it down. If your P&I and Avionics are updated then putting $$ into the engines will pay back.
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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 16:52 
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Company: Tack Mobile
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John (or anyone), do you mind sharing what you did and costs for HSI? I am trying to create a budget for a 425XP and I have seen a confusingly wide range of numbers for -135 inspections.


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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 18:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
John (or anyone), do you mind sharing what you did and costs for HSI?
John,
The total bill for my hot section inspection was $109K. I don't remember the exact breakdown but it was about $35K for each engine and about $40K for the accessory gearbox on the left engine. The oil pump section was scored. The mechanic from Prime Turbines estimated it would have cratered on me between the next one to 100 hours. Yikes!

I have the -112 engines. My understanding is the -135 engines can be a bit more expensive due to the higher operating temps.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 20:31 
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John, the total bill for a HSI depends mostly on the TT of the engines and what's been done during past hot sections. I don't know that there would be a huge difference between a -135 and a -112 if everything else wee equal. There are some "fixed costs" that you'll end up paying no matter what though:

- split engines, remove HS, pack up and ship to outside vendor for inspection, reassemble, rig, test: Technicair Fresno charges $4500 per side for this. Maybe you can get it done for less at a smaller shop.
- Fuel nozzles while they're out: $175/side for flow check or $750/side for overhaul.
- If less than 5000 hours TT then no stretch check for the blades. If stretch check needed then something like $1200/side.
- Function check and replace diaphragm on bleed valve about $750/side
- Cleaning, other inspections, PMA segments, consumables, freight, etc.: About $10k per side

After all that then it boils down to what repairs or replacement parts are needed:

- Blades? About $450 each (there are 58 per side) for PMA (-112 blades, not sure of the cost for 135 blades but probably similar. They are not single crystal which are huge $$)
- Combustion liner weld repair (very common) maybe $2000 for nothing too bad.
- CT vane ring? Mine was non repairable so $11,000 for PMA.

Then there is the choice of shop. Most expensive would be a DOF like Dallas or even PWC. They will require replacement of any PMA parts even if there's nothing wrong. Middle of the road, but some brand value would be Prime, Turbines Inc, Covington. Less $ than a DOF, and will install PMA parts. Then there are NBF shops (nobody famous) which will be less than Prime, etc. Parts prices are negotiable, BTW. I negotiated 20% off my PMA parts. You have to ask, and be a little annoying.

My total cost for 2 x -112's was about $95k but that included new PMA blades on both sides, a new CT vane ring, and a liner weld repair. My engines had 6800 TT and one overhaul. On the other hand, my buddy with first run -135's paid about $40k including R&R. There wasn't much to repair or replace so it was an open, inspect, close type job.

Make sure you take video of all eng instruments for your start, climb, cruise, and descent before disassembly. You want to have a good baseline of how the engines run before taking them apart. If there's a huge ITT split after the HSI, that's on the shop to fix. But if no documentation, no recourse. Lastly, you can't really predict the cost of the HSI based on the borescope inspection. You might be able to spot something that indicates a very expensive repair like a cracked CT blade or vane ring, but most problems are invisible to the borescope inspection. For example, if you have a blade that has a tiny crack that only appears after cleaning, all blades must be replaced, not just the cracked one. Good times... On the flip side what looks like sulfidation on the borescope might just be combustion crud after cleaning.

PM if you want more details.

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 Post subject: Re: Where To Go For Hot-Section Inspection on Conquest
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2022, 03:03 
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Company: Tack Mobile
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Username Protected wrote:
John (or anyone), do you mind sharing what you did and costs for HSI?
John,
The total bill for my hot section inspection was $109K. I don't remember the exact breakdown but it was about $35K for each engine and about $40K for the accessory gearbox on the left engine. The oil pump section was scored. The mechanic from Prime Turbines estimated it would have cratered on me between the next one to 100 hours. Yikes!

I have the -112 engines. My understanding is the -135 engines can be a bit more expensive due to the higher operating temps.


Wow, that is scary. The airplane we are looking at apparently had a prop come out of reverse on landing and went offroading, requiring early hot sections (now about 500 hours ago) and two new propellers. I assume they inspected the gearboxes as well, I will take a close look at that log entry. Thanks for the info.

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