$20,000 a year citation? Does it come with the bridge?

Chip-

I understand Mike C and Michael T's abilities and situations may allow for operating a legacy citation near $20k. What do you guys think it would cost in maintenance for 150 hours maintained at a Service Center or a place like Duncan? Or, what's the name of the citation facility in Oregon? Procraft? For an owner that doesn't have the aptitude or inclination to diagnose and source the needed parts at a reputable facility where you can rely on their competency without a lot of due diligence?

My gut tells me it's close to $80k. Maybe $60k on LUMP. But, I don't know, just a guesstimate.

How many legacy citations have you owned Chip?

If you want to take a legacy citation to service center or a duncan, this is not the airplane for you IMO. But to take a stab at your question I’d say blank check wasteful mx would be 40 a year.

if nothing is wrong. I know a guy with one that has a failed aircon and his quote to replace it is 85k… now I’m sure the Tarvers of the world have some spares sitting on the shelf that you could install yourself with your A&P but that’s the service center quote.

There are more independent service facilities with extensive Citation experience than you can count. They’re not difficult to find.

if nothing is wrong. I know a guy with one that has a failed aircon and his quote to replace it is 85k… now I’m sure the Tarvers of the world have some spares sitting on the shelf that you could install yourself with your A&P but that’s the service center quote.

Enjoying the conversation. Chuck knows me from many years of Mirage/Meridian ownership on the MMOPA forum. Some of you know me from CJP now.

Some comparisons. I owned a Meridian for 3 years. All maintenance was done by the Piper Dealer. I averaged about $20k. That did not count reserves for engine or prop. I also did not have any big gotchas like a heated windshield which lets face it is a periodic thing on PA46 (especially on the piston models). My normal trip is 1,050 nm which is outside the Meridian range 95% of the time. With a fuel stop that means two climbs to altitude, I averaged 1500lbs of fuel for the two legs.

If the M600 had existed at the time I probably would have gone that way because of familiarity. We considered the Eclipse and Mustang. My wife would not give up the Meridian she loved for that little Eclipse (her words not mine). The Eclipse is really not a 1,050 nm airplane either so I didn't push for it.

One demo in the Mustang did it. A Citation (any of them) has a solid feel that Piper doesn't have. TBM is better but still not the same IMHO. The decisions we make are not simply about the dollars and cents, speed, and other metrics. Its about how it feels. My Mustang laughs at turbulence and icing conditions that the Meridian/M600 should stay away from. The bigger Citations take that even further.

I don't own one of the older Citations being discussed but I now have plenty of friends who own them. Those of you who have trouble believing the low MX costs are missing the point that parts are plentiful and cheap. Those airplanes were made mostly with common industry parts that you can buy outside the manufacturer parts channel. Unfortunately for me most of the Mustang parts are proprietary to Textron.

The same thing applies to the labor. There are people everywhere who can work on legacy Citations and they do it for less. If you read the service manual you'll find many of those inspections can be done by your local A&P. I use a local guy for about half the work on my Mustang and take it to Textron for the specialized stuff. I'm spending more than I did on the Meridian but not by much. Its only because I am involved and mitigate the cost by choosing who does each operation. I can believe an owner who chooses wisely and does not buy parts from Textron can maintain a Part 91 legacy Citation for $20k per year not including engines.

The other thing touched on but not in depth is engines. The old Pratt jet engines and most of the PT6 turboprop can get HSI or overhaul by multiple providers. You can do an HSI and run those JT15 just about forever. You can't do that with my Mustang because the only one who can do an HSI is Pratt directly, and as far as I know no one has gotten Pratt to perform an HSI on an engine that is beyond TBO. If you do want to overhaul a JT15 or PT6 its a whole lot cheaper than the newer proprietary engines such as the Mustang's Pratt, the Citation V Pratt, or any of the Williams powered jets.

The older engines do use more fuel. The difference is less the higher you go. If your trip is 200 or 300 miles, the difference is huge. The longer your trip the less it will be. My Mustang uses hardly any more fuel than the Meridian only because the Meridian had to stop. The same thing happens if I make a trip beyond the Mustang's range. On a 1500 mile trip Mike's V might not use any more fuel than two legs in the Mustang.

The M600 has the range but it can't get over the weather. Flight planning a long trip in a jet mostly involves looking at the departure and arrival airports. Other than something extreme and unusual we really don't care what the weather is in between because its under us. That doesn't mean I don't look, it just isn't a factor like it is in piston or turboprop altitudes (except for the Avanti which makes it an interesting alternative).

Love this write up Don. I've been lusting for a Mustang. With 2 engines and more than twice the fuel burn I can't comprehend how, with a fuel stop for the Meridian, they are close in fuel costs. That fuel stop doesn't double the usage. Would love more detail.

Anyways, so about that Raptor

How many legacy citations have you owned Chip?

Flew my Mustang from KELM to KAPF today, about 10 hours ago as I write this. You can look at it on Flightaware for N77TZ. Unusual to have a tailwind in that direction but it was there today. 03:14 flight time. I burned 1750 lbs of fuel. That includes the fact that ATC starts bringing me down over 200 miles from destination. I'm at FL200 125 miles out, and 10,000 ft for the last 70 miles. Wind was favorable, its usually a bit more time and a bit more fuel. I could have cut the fuel by 75 lbs by pulling back power on those low altitude sections but I had plenty of reserve so lets go fast.

Right now I went to fltplan.com and entered KELM to KCPC where I usually stopped for fuel with the Meridian. Cheap fuel there! The tailwind is still there same as 10 hours ago. My profile for the Meridian is quite accurate and it shows 02:04 time and 600 lbs of fuel at FL260. The route is ELM MRB CSN KCPC but I can tell you from experience that you'll get a diversion between CSN and CPC so add a few minutes. The fltplan.com profile also assumes you can maintain FL260 until the very end which never happens. Today this leg would realistically have been about 680 lbs of fuel.

The second leg is KCPC CYNTA.SHFTY5 KAPF. Thats the route you will get every time. Fltplan.com shows 02:21 time and 644 lbs of fuel. I reality you'll be down to FL180 by Orlando and down to 9,000 ft by the time you get handed off to Ft Myers approach so real world is 725 lbs of fuel.

So on the same day example we have 1400 lbs of fuel for the Meridian and 1750 for the Mustang. The Meridian is 4.5 hours in the air plus half our for the fuel stop. The Mustang is 3.25 hours in the air and done. An M600 would use less fuel than the other examples and about 4 hours in the air. In seven years, making this trip 6 to 10 times a year, there have only been four or five times the headwind was such that I had to make a fuel stop with the Mustang. Those were days with 75kt+ headwinds.

Of course there will be days that we can sway this to whatever conclusion is desired. The airplane that makes the desired trip without a stop will generally be more efficient. In a few weeks I have to fly from KELM to KSAT which will almost certainly require a fuel stop westbound. Mike's Citation V would probably use less fuel than my Mustang on that trip.

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How many legacy citations have you owned Chip?[/quote]
The same number you have managed to do for $20,000 a year valuing your time at not $0/hour.

Chip-[/quote]

Yeh all 43 of them

Sure it’s a true statement. Citations are being salvaged regularly. Even in this crazy market I’ve seen a few 2000 and later model year Citation II’s (let’s call it a Bravo!) sent right to the junkyard this year. Of course values are up for everything but Citations are just another airplane. And they are not $20k/yr airplanes for anyone who wants to keep them airworthy. That isn’t even remotely realistic but I still love optimism.

Hey, about that one thread; $1MM Meridian vs. $1MM TBM !