BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Jun 2021, 18:27

Hi everyone,

Coming back around to the whole SIC-required limitation...

I have been digging into this all day. I simply cannot find a basis by which these DPEs are adding the SIC-required designation when someone passes the checkride in an SP bird and the DPE is not acting as a crewmember.

From here: https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/ce-500%20rev1.pdf

Quote:

2.2.2 Pilot Type Rating-Practical Test as Single Pilot Model 501/551. An applicant who satisfactorily completes a practical test as a single pilot in Model 501or 551 will be issued a CE- 500 pilot type rating on the pilot’s temporary airman certificate. The satisfactory accomplishment of the CE-500 practical test as a single pilot in specific Model 501 or 551 will be recorded in the applicant’s logbook in accordance with FAA Order 8900.1 Volume 5, Chapter 2.

2.2.3 Pilot Type Rating-Practical Test with Two Pilots Model 501/551. In accordance with the provisions of 14 CFR §61.43(b)(3) and FAA Order 8900.1 Volume 5, Chapter 2, when the airplane’s TCDS or AFM states the minimum crew composition to be a single pilot, the applicant may elect to perform the practical test as a single pilot or with an SIC.

An applicant who satisfactorily completes a practical test utilizing an SIC in Model 501/551 will be issued a CE-500 pilot type rating on the pilots temporary airmen certificate with a Limitation, “CE-500 Second in Command Required.” The satisfactory accomplishment of the CE-500 practical test utilizing a second in command in specific Model 501 or 551 will be recorded in the applicant’s logbook in accordance with FAA Order 8900.1 Volume 5, Chapter 2. This “SIC Required” limitation is necessary for the CE-500 pilot type rating because the CE-500 pilot type rating includes both single pilot and two pilot type certificated aircraft and single pilot versus two pilot qualification is documented on the pilot certificate.

I am picking up my 501SP with my instructor/mentor pilot in a couple weeks. After that I plan to fly a bit with my mentor pilot to get comfortable in the plane before I do my type rating. All that to say I am not yet in a hurry to schedule my type, but I will definitely ask about this.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Jun 2021, 18:39

Username Protected wrote:

Hi everyone,

Coming back around to the whole SIC-required limitation...

I have been digging into this all day. I simply cannot find a basis by which these DPEs are adding the SIC-required designation when someone passes the checkride in an SP bird and the DPE is not acting as a crewmember.

From here: https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/ce-500%20rev1.pdf

Quote:

2.2.2 Pilot Type Rating-Practical Test as Single Pilot Model 501/551. An applicant who satisfactorily completes a practical test as a single pilot in Model 501or 551 will be issued a CE- 500 pilot type rating on the pilot’s temporary airman certificate. The satisfactory accomplishment of the CE-500 practical test as a single pilot in specific Model 501 or 551 will be recorded in the applicant’s logbook in accordance with FAA Order 8900.1 Volume 5, Chapter 2.

2.2.3 Pilot Type Rating-Practical Test with Two Pilots Model 501/551. In accordance with the provisions of 14 CFR §61.43(b)(3) and FAA Order 8900.1 Volume 5, Chapter 2, when the airplane’s TCDS or AFM states the minimum crew composition to be a single pilot, the applicant may elect to perform the practical test as a single pilot or with an SIC.

An applicant who satisfactorily completes a practical test utilizing an SIC in Model 501/551 will be issued a CE-500 pilot type rating on the pilots temporary airmen certificate with a Limitation, “CE-500 Second in Command Required.” The satisfactory accomplishment of the CE-500 practical test utilizing a second in command in specific Model 501 or 551 will be recorded in the applicant’s logbook in accordance with FAA Order 8900.1 Volume 5, Chapter 2. This “SIC Required” limitation is necessary for the CE-500 pilot type rating because the CE-500 pilot type rating includes both single pilot and two pilot type certificated aircraft and single pilot versus two pilot qualification is documented on the pilot certificate.

I am picking up my 501SP with my instructor/mentor pilot in a couple weeks. After that I plan to fly a bit with my mentor pilot to get comfortable in the plane before I do my type rating. All that to say I am not yet in a hurry to schedule my type, but I will definitely ask about this.

That is the problem, there is no basis. Do your diligence in advance before choosing who you do your initial with.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 02:22

The entire Jet type rating is a mess. I can get a type rating in 4-5 days with AZ type rating and they want $12.5k and I have to use my own plane. My initial in my 421 was $4k and 3 days with a Sim. Why in the hell would a Jet initial cost 3 times in my plane?

This is compete horse crap. Just charging people crazy amounts because they can. No way the cost is relative to what you are getting.

Welcome to the Jet world. LOL.

Mike

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 02:30

Username Protected wrote:

The entire Jet type rating is a mess. I can get a type rating in 4-5 days with AZ type rating and they want $12.5k and I have to use my own plane. My initial in my 421 was $4k and 3 days with a Sim. Why in the hell would a Jet initial cost 3 times in my plane?

This is compete horse crap. Just charging people crazy amounts because they can. No way the cost is relative to what you are getting.

Welcome to the Jet world. LOL.

Mike

A 421 requires a type rating? :scratch:

A type rating is a type rating, so of course it should cost more.

But, yes, jets are more expensive to own/operate. The enhanced safety, comfort and ability to fly over more types weather are luxuries. Luxury costs money.

In fact, if you looked up the definition of "luxury item" in a dictionary, it should read "private jet".

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 08:12

Username Protected wrote:

The entire Jet type rating is a mess. I can get a type rating in 4-5 days with AZ type rating and they want $12.5k and I have to use my own plane. My initial in my 421 was $4k and 3 days with a Sim. Why in the hell would a Jet initial cost 3 times in my plane?

This is compete horse crap. Just charging people crazy amounts because they can. No way the cost is relative to what you are getting.

Welcome to the Jet world. LOL.

Mike

In the "old" days (I mean 2017), the insurance companies would allow a CFI like me to train you and sign you off. Then you could take a check ride for $2000 with the local DPE. You can still do this if your insurance company allows it. I'd ask. But, yes, these training schools have a license to extort. Call Executive Flight Training in Beaufort also.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 11:02

What's the collective wisdom of where one should go to get a CE-500 initial type rating, and how much will it cost?

By the time I get around to doing it, I'll have 500 turbine so can do the sim without having to worry about SOE, so I'll likely go that route.

No, not looking to upgrade, but I might get the type and see if I can pick up some contract work for the heck of it.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 15:43

Username Protected wrote:

What's the collective wisdom of where one should go to get a CE-500 initial type rating, and how much will it cost?

By the time I get around to doing it, I'll have 500 turbine so can do the sim without having to worry about SOE, so I'll likely go that route.

No, not looking to upgrade, but I might get the type and see if I can pick up some contract work for the heck of it.

I went to Loft in San Diego and the 3 week course was $12,500 if I recall, and the cheapest one I found. Training was pretty good, I only had 1 instructor that I thought was a total dipsheet (not for lack of knowledge, but personality MINUS) but the rest were good and the owner is a great guy. Also if you have to hole up somewhere for 3 weeks, hard to beat San Diego.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 17:21

Username Protected wrote:

The entire Jet type rating is a mess. I can get a type rating in 4-5 days with AZ type rating and they want $12.5k and I have to use my own plane. My initial in my 421 was $4k and 3 days with a Sim. Why in the hell would a Jet initial cost 3 times in my plane?

This is compete horse crap. Just charging people crazy amounts because they can. No way the cost is relative to what you are getting.

Welcome to the Jet world. LOL.

Mike

A 421 requires a type rating? :scratch:

A type rating is a type rating, so of course it should cost more.

But, yes, jets are more expensive to own/operate. The enhanced safety, comfort and ability to fly over more types weather are luxuries. Luxury costs money.

In fact, if you looked up the definition of "luxury item" in a dictionary, it should read "private jet".

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 18:08

Username Protected wrote:

What's the collective wisdom of where one should go to get a CE-500 initial type rating, and how much will it cost?

My insurance required sim initial at either Flightsafety or Simcom. I am CP-ASMEL-IA, 4000 TT, 1600 turboprop. So you may have limitations put on by your insurance.

One way around that is to do the initial type rating prior to buying the plane, then it is done and the insurance company can't force a particular provider on you.

Flightsafety was actually slightly cheaper than Simcom, for whatever reason, $14K. I did it in Atlanta which is conveniently closer as opposed to Simcom.

Quote:

No, not looking to upgrade, but I might get the type and see if I can pick up some contract work for the heck of it.

Then their insurance will control what you need to do. I seriously doubt you can go from sim to PIC directly.

Insurance imposed 50 hours of mentoring. I am about 35 hours into that now.

Note that insurance can impose SIC requirements above what the FAA requires. I have run into that problem at present so even when I get past mentoring, I basically need a mentor level SIC to fly as crew.

I go for SPE end of August. Then I can fly solo, but oddly will still have high requirements for an SIC, which makes no sense.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 18:31

I agree Mike; in your case of having flown the MU2 a long time without accident or incident, the initial mentoring and the SP endorsement should be enough. I flew the 501 for a couple of years, and I can't imagine an easier or safer jet to fly, and sorry to say , after flying Lears, I thought it was a yawn, but that's part of being easy and safe, and it's the jet I would have if I could afford one.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 20:17

"With the type rating, it literally makes it the slowest plane I've ever owned" - Jason Crandall

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 20:34

Username Protected wrote:

What's the collective wisdom of where one should go to get a CE-500 initial type rating, and how much will it cost?

By the time I get around to doing it, I'll have 500 turbine so can do the sim without having to worry about SOE, so I'll likely go that route.

No, not looking to upgrade, but I might get the type and see if I can pick up some contract work for the heck of it.

I went to Loft in San Diego and the 3 week course was $12,500 if I recall, and the cheapest one I found. Training was pretty good, I only had 1 instructor that I thought was a total dipsheet (not for lack of knowledge, but personality MINUS) but the rest were good and the owner is a great guy. Also if you have to hole up somewhere for 3 weeks, hard to beat San Diego.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 21:20

Username Protected wrote:

I seriously doubt you can go from sim to PIC directly.

Chuckle… of course not Mike. Thought that was fairly obvious. I’d be picking up SIC work.

No, don’t need the type for SIC (although, as you said, often insurance drives that requirement and sometimes requires the SIC to have a type) but the rating lets me log PIC time.

No real plan to do this, just kicking it around as a possibility.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Jul 2021, 23:25

I got a 525 and 525S type back in 2002 ish. Did it all in the sim @ SimuFlite. Took the crew checkride, and at the completion of that, the SIC got out, I flew some procedures etc single pilot and that was it. I think the FAA has consolidated the 525 and 525S types since then.

Robert T

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jul 2021, 01:59

Username Protected wrote:

What's the collective wisdom of where one should go to get a CE-500 initial type rating, and how much will it cost?

My insurance required sim initial at either Flightsafety or Simcom. I am CP-ASMEL-IA, 4000 TT, 1600 turboprop. So you may have limitations put on by your insurance.

One way around that is to do the initial type rating prior to buying the plane, then it is done and the insurance company can't force a particular provider on you.

Flightsafety was actually slightly cheaper than Simcom, for whatever reason, $14K. I did it in Atlanta which is conveniently closer as opposed to Simcom.

Quote:

No, not looking to upgrade, but I might get the type and see if I can pick up some contract work for the heck of it.

Then their insurance will control what you need to do. I seriously doubt you can go from sim to PIC directly.

Insurance imposed 50 hours of mentoring. I am about 35 hours into that now.

Note that insurance can impose SIC requirements above what the FAA requires. I have run into that problem at present so even when I get past mentoring, I basically need a mentor level SIC to fly as crew.

I go for SPE end of August. Then I can fly solo, but oddly will still have high requirements for an SIC, which makes no sense.

Mike C.

Citation 501sp