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28 Mar 2024, 06:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 17:51 
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The fleet and hours of true technologically advanced aircraft, not the AOPA or FAA definition which was horribly irrelevant to todays aircraft, is increasingly Becoming a larger percentage of fleet hours.

Please define "true technologically advanced aircraft". List the criteria to be considered such and which models/years those are.

I suspect they are still a very small percentage of the fleet.

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The TBM900 fatal accident was an interesting one, but so unnecessary.

Which accidents are necessary?

Most accidents come down to something that could have been avoided. Age of the aircraft doesn't change that. Very few accidents relate to the technology of the aircraft as well, and higher tech doesn't mean it helped, it could hurt as well.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 17:52 
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Username Protected wrote:

If you are looking at SETPs, you’d be remiss not to look at the TBM700C2. Great performer. Less than the m600, does more.



Also much less prone to have the wings ripped off in case of inadvertent CB penetration.


Why would you say that?? Number of TBM's with inflight breakups: 1, M600's 0. Meridian and M500's, 1.

For the TBM and the Meridian that did suffer an inflight breakup, they had one thing in common, they were dead before the plane broke, up, because they had lost control, and far exceeded the certified performance envelope of the aircraft.

As to the M600, it has a very very strong wing with similar certification speeds as the TBM. Vmo 251 vs 266, Va 153 versus 158, G-factors 3.8
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Last edited on 24 Apr 2021, 18:00, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 17:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
Pilot failed to follow EP. sorry, that’s on him.

Same with the 501 example presented earlier.

That's the point.

Old and new aircraft had mechanical failure. Age didn't play a role. Pilot response did play a role. Technology wasn't the answer.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 18:57 
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Re: age vs rate of failure, most parts and airplanes follow the “bathtub curve” where initial infant mortality failure rate is high, then decreases, and eventually age related failure modes begin to dominate.

The trick is to replace the critical parts on older aircraft before they hit the steep part of the right hand end of the curve. When that occurs is dependent on the type of part of course.

But it also shows new is not more reliable. Often it is less reliable for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 19:20 
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The argument I'm making isn't that a new aircraft is safer, it's that a new aircraft provides a less frustrating ownership experience. However, I have only my own experience from which to draw that conclusion. I've never owned a new aircraft and I've never owned an MU2.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 19:37 
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The argument I'm making isn't that a new aircraft is safer, it's that a new aircraft provides a less frustrating ownership experience. However, I have only my own experience from which to draw that conclusion. I've never owned a new aircraft and I've never owned an MU2.


Yeah but you could install a GFC 600 autopilot and replace every electrical relay with new and still be at least a million ahead.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 19:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
The argument I'm making isn't that a new aircraft is safer, it's that a new aircraft provides a less frustrating ownership experience.

I think that can be the case, but is not necessarily the case.

There have been some examples of new aircraft which had major issues that took the manufacturer a while to deal with. That would be a frustrating ownership experience, having an expensive new asset sitting grounded for a lengthy period.

I think there is a decent amount of variability between individual examples of the same breed of older aircraft, due to the many maintenance choices made by owners along the way. Again, some older aircraft can be money pits and quite frustrating.

I don't think there's a single rule that "a new aircraft will always be less frustrating" or "older aircraft are always more reliable" that really applies. As with many types of complex products and machines, a fair amount of due diligence on the buyer's part to figure out what they are getting is just part of the deal. And a dash of luck in some cases too. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 19:47 
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I don't know about that. Replacing every electrical relay might cost a million dollars.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 20:10 
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I’ve flown quite a few different makes / models of both newer and older aircraft and have dealt with many mx, squawks, headaches and costs of both flavors.

I’ll take the newer for more $ everyday and so would the people that I invite to fly with me. That’s just me.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 20:12 
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The frustrating things about which I speak are not variable between airframes or makes of aircraft. They are age-related and affect the whole fleet. Relay failures, brittle wires and intermittent electrical shorts plague all aircraft of this age. However, apparently not the venerable MU2.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 20:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
For the TBM and the Meridian that did suffer an inflight breakup, they had one thing in common, they were dead before the plane broke, up, because they had lost control, and far exceeded the certified performance envelope of the aircraft.

concur.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 20:15 
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You conveniently left out Meridian/M500 builds.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 20:21 
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The frustrating things about which I speak are not variable between airframes or makes of aircraft. They are age-related and affect the whole fleet. Relay failures, brittle wires and intermittent electrical shorts plague all aircraft of this age. However, apparently not the venerable MU2.

Actually the MU2 has a surprisingly robust electrical system and componentry. While I won't say it can't have some of the issues you describe, they don't seem to be common.

I still believe there is a fair amount of variability. When you get avionics done, for example, do you go through and get rid of old and redundant wiring or do you cut it off with a giant set of dykes and leave it there? I believe those kinds of choices, made over time, add up and matter.

New aircraft may have different modes of failure, but they still have some modes of failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 20:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Actually the MU2 has a surprisingly robust electrical system and componentry.

Of course it does. I would expect nothing less of the MU2.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Cheyenne II vs M600
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2021, 20:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
You conveniently left out Meridian/M500 builds.


not on purpose. I couldn't find the number. I like the M600 and would be in one if it was a good fit...

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