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21 Oct 2021, 12:57 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 21:13 
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They made the NAARMO altitude height monitoring step seem unimportant.
Or rather, a formality. The NAARMO step is the only one that counts, the prelims just give you confidence that you'll pass it.
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Why should that same FAA test not be good enough to demonstrate compliance in the first place since it is going to be the final arbiter anyway?
The whole RVSM w/ ADS-B thing is a shining example of Upton Sinclair's note that, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it"


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 22:32 
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Dave, congrats. I just read through this thread and this has been an epic (capital E!) project from start to finish. It is a beautiful airplane. I'm subscribed and looking forward to reading about your flying experiences with it. LMK if you need a buyer someday, I'm putting away in my Roth right now for it :D

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2021, 09:55 
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The whole RVSM w/ ADS-B thing is a shining example of Upton Sinclair's note that, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it"


That cuts both ways.....

Do you know what your ASE is? Neema do you know yours now? It would be interesting to look at those numbers. The TBM is a few hundred feet ASE. No way would it pass without installing the SSEC into the ADC.

Someone had to fly the test profile to get the SSEC numbers that get programmed into the ADC. You aren't going to get that from NAARMO. And I don't understand how that data becomes irrelevant once he gets monitored by NAARMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2021, 11:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
The whole RVSM w/ ADS-B thing is a shining example of Upton Sinclair's note that, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it"


That cuts both ways.....

Do you know what your ASE is? Neema do you know yours now?


Not yet. They needed a week or two to crunch numbers and prepare the packet

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 12:49 
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ASE came back in well below limits, ±200 feet.

In the worst configuration, there was 22 feet ASE.

I'm told ASE gets worse as mach number increases. This happened to be at the highest altitude at a maximum cruise speed setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 14:10 
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ASE came back in well below limits, ±200 feet.

In the worst configuration, there was 22 feet ASE.

I'm told ASE gets worse as mach number increases. This happened to be at the highest altitude at a maximum cruise speed setting.


That's great! Do you have an SSEC installed in your ADCs?


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 14:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
ASE came back in well below limits, ±200 feet.

In the worst configuration, there was 22 feet ASE.

I'm told ASE gets worse as mach number increases. This happened to be at the highest altitude at a maximum cruise speed setting.


That's great! Do you have an SSEC installed in your ADCs?


Garmin isn't willing to provide anything for SSEC on their G900X packages (although it's possible in theory), so you "run what you brung"

If there was a major ASE, I'd be up a creek. If it was marginal, slowing down would be the only tool available.

Luckily the whole envelope was clean.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 14:36 
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Username Protected wrote:

That's great! Do you have an SSEC installed in your ADCs?


Garmin isn't willing to provide anything for SSEC on their G900X packages (although it's possible in theory), so you "run what you brung"

If there was a major ASE, I'd be up a creek. If it was marginal, slowing down would be the only tool available.

Luckily the whole envelope was clean.


That means you have a really great static port location! The TBM is a little over 200' in cruise.

Curious about how they got such a good location (I'm assuming it came from early flight testing), do you know if the port location has been the same throughout the life of the program, or have they changed the recommended location?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 14:37 
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If there was a major ASE, I'd be up a creek. If it was marginal, slowing down would be the only tool available.


I could fix it......


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 14:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
ASE came back in well below limits, ±200 feet.

In the worst configuration, there was 22 feet ASE.

Was there any data in the NAARMO reports documenting the ASE they computed during your test flight? Or is that report simply a go/no-go conclusion?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 14:49 
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I could fix it......


Awesome--curious how!? Secret black box?


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 15:14 
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I could fix it......


Awesome--curious how!? Secret black box?


I haven't done it, just proposed it. It would be a pass-thru device that modifies the altitude labels out of the ADC based on a SSEC map.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 16:00 
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Was there any data in the NAARMO reports documenting the ASE they computed during your test flight? Or is that report simply a go/no-go conclusion?


Amidst all this, there has been no NAARMO application submitted or report received. At least not by me. To be specific, I'm talking about this one

Even if we submitted that report, it usually takes a month or two to get on this list.

FWIW, we didn't squeeze in a 15 minute straight and level portion into flight test, so I don't think we could use it for the NAARMO monitoring test. We were turning all over the place every minute or two with the occasional 6-7 minutes straight on one heading.


The report I received gave a colored description on how the plane complies with each component of section 9, i.e. the equipment requirements, AP maintaining ±65 feet, ASE, etc.

To me, this seems more binding than having your name on the NAARMO list, which says explicitly that it's not used by ATC to grant you access into RVSM airspace anyways, so...?

AC 91-85B section 4.4 says "U.S.-registered operators may obtain monitoring performance from the FAA altitude-keeping performance website..."

That doesn't sound like a requirement to me, so this plane may never make it on the list. Perhaps the list gives you peace of mind that your plane has been successfully monitored in the past 24 months (AC 91-85B 4.3.5.2).


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2021, 15:23 
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That means you have a really great static port location! The TBM is a little over 200' in cruise.

Curious about how they got such a good location (I'm assuming it came from early flight testing), do you know if the port location has been the same throughout the life of the program, or have they changed the recommended location?


Correction, I was too excited and misread 3σ error as mean ASE.


Mean ASE was actually 98 feet in the worst scenario. 3 standard deviations of error in either direction is the ±22 feet.

Definitely not as clean as I initially thought but still acceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2021, 16:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
That means you have a really great static port location! The TBM is a little over 200' in cruise.

Curious about how they got such a good location (I'm assuming it came from early flight testing), do you know if the port location has been the same throughout the life of the program, or have they changed the recommended location?


Correction, I was too excited and misread 3σ error as mean ASE.


Mean ASE was actually 98 feet in the worst scenario. 3 standard deviations of error in either direction is the ±22 feet.

Definitely not as clean as I initially thought but still acceptable.


Good thing you are non-Group!

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