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24 Sep 2021, 02:15 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 09:17 
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Cool flying experience today. Took the plane up with two gentlemen from Aeromech (RVSM engineers to measure altimetry error in RVSM airspace).

How did they measure? And do you mind sharing a ballpark cost for the engineering?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 22:09 
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Happy to share, Jon.

In my case, they used a carry on GPS unit. When I noticed it just was a Stratus, I didn't know if I should be insulted or not, but it's been tested in conjunction with a trailing cone.

The key is in the flight profile and meteorological data. Flight test included many 3 leaf clovers trying to drive through the same point to back-check IAS, TAS, and OAT. From what I know, the weather model data comes from the FAA in DC. That's how geometric altitude is converted to pressure altitude. Probably the same process as GMUs used pre-ADS-B. Presumably, the weather data is available to the public? I'm curious, it'd be fun to try this as DIY project, minus the 'your neck is on the line' part.

Normal costs for their STCs on certified planes are 16-20k plus any other costs for help to mount a trailing cone and the DARs fee to approve the cone and take your plane from certified to experimental and back. Don't quote me on exact range.

I fell right in the middle at 18k. In my case, they still need to crunch numbers using a datalog from the panel as well. If ASE comes back acceptable, I get an ASE validation binder to include with my logbooks and can feel confident flying in RVSM airspace

They made the NAARMO altitude height monitoring step seem unimportant. Like it's not mandatory to be on it. There's been so much ambiguity with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 22:35 
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Bummer I didn't have ASE validation done today. The plane will happily keep trucking on up

http://youtu.be/eWW4ZircO04


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 23:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
Bummer I didn't have ASE validation done today. The plane will happily keep trucking on up

http://youtu.be/eWW4ZircO04


Very impressive performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 00:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
They made the NAARMO altitude height monitoring step seem unimportant. Like it's not mandatory to be on it.
It sounds just like the process for the old Section 2 certification, how does it differ? Section 2 certification would let you do RVSM internationally as well, that would be a plus.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 01:15 
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Dave, I thought the same. What I was told is that flight test and the delivered package is expressly validation data only for ASE.

If the results come back within acceptable limits, you're effectively getting their blessing that the plane complies with all of 91 appendix G section 9. All of section 9. They checked the equipment setup on the ground before we flew.

Easy for owners to configure and validate everything except 9 (b).

With that, no international RVSM approval. In that vein, I don't understand why a plane that's "substantiated" to fly RVSM airspace domestically under section 9 can't fly RVSM until reaching the border, then drop down. I'm told the whole entire flight has to be out of RVSM if the flight plan is international. Maybe pick up a second, non RVSM flight plan in the air? heh


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 11:04 
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Neema,

I thought I saw your Epic listed for sale on Controller.

What’s up?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 14:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Neema,

I thought I saw your Epic listed for sale on Controller.

What’s up?


That's correct. There's even a listing here on BT for the plane. A little sad but this one is now in contract. Delivering the plane with RVSM was included in terms for the buyer. We have an older one we're keeping


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 15:00 
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Dave, I thought the same. What I was told is that flight test and the delivered package is expressly validation data only for ASE.

If the results come back within acceptable limits, you're effectively getting their blessing that the plane complies with all of 91 appendix G section 9. All of section 9. They checked the equipment setup on the ground before we flew.

Easy for owners to configure and validate everything except 9 (b).

I still find this whole thing a little bizarre. Even once you have done this testing, to be compliant with section 9 you must still do a flight in RVSM where the FAA will watch the aircraft ADSB data and tell you whether it really is ok and within limits.

So why the hell isn’t that the test? All the other stuff is window dressing because the FAA ADSB test is still the gate keeping test. Pass it and you should be good.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 15:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
Dave, I thought the same. What I was told is that flight test and the delivered package is expressly validation data only for ASE.

If the results come back within acceptable limits, you're effectively getting their blessing that the plane complies with all of 91 appendix G section 9. All of section 9. They checked the equipment setup on the ground before we flew.

Easy for owners to configure and validate everything except 9 (b).

I still find this whole thing a little bizarre. Even once you have done this testing, to be compliant with section 9 you must still do a flight in RVSM where the FAA will watch the aircraft ADSB data and tell you whether it really is ok and within limits.

So why the hell isn’t that the test? All the other stuff is window dressing because the FAA ADSB test is still the gate keeping test. Pass it and you should be good.


The airframe certification characterizes the ASE throughout the whole RVSM envelope. So the entire range of RVSM altitudes at different airspeeds and weights. If any part of that exceeds a certain error then a SSEC curve will need to be developed for the ADC.

The monitoring only looks at the flights you fly, so may be only a small part of that envelope.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 15:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
The airframe certification characterizes the ASE throughout the whole RVSM envelope. So the entire range of RVSM altitudes at different airspeeds and weights. If any part of that exceeds a certain error then a SSEC curve will need to be developed for the ADC.

The monitoring only looks at the flights you fly, so may be only a small part of that envelope.

I get that.

But they clearly have the ability to monitor and assess your altitude performance. And Section 9 clearly calls out that you must take an initial flight that they can evaluate for approval. So it could easily specify that the initial test flight must cover X-Y range of air speeds and A-B range of altitudes for some number of minutes. Then send you the report. If it was good, you’re now blessed. Done.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 16:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
The airframe certification characterizes the ASE throughout the whole RVSM envelope. So the entire range of RVSM altitudes at different airspeeds and weights. If any part of that exceeds a certain error then a SSEC curve will need to be developed for the ADC.

The monitoring only looks at the flights you fly, so may be only a small part of that envelope.

I get that.

But they clearly have the ability to monitor and assess your altitude performance. And Section 9 clearly calls out that you must take an initial flight that they can evaluate for approval. So it could easily specify that the initial test flight must cover X-Y range of air speeds and A-B range of altitudes for some number of minutes. Then send you the report. If it was good, you’re now blessed. Done.


Some airframes have some funny errors in certain corners of the flight envelope. I don't know how they would know what those were in advance without actual certification.

And it is more than airspeed and altitude. AoA affects ASE too, so you need to fly at a range of weights.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 23:44 
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Some airframes have some funny errors in certain corners of the flight envelope. I don't know how they would know what those were in advance without actual certification.

And it is more than airspeed and altitude. AoA affects ASE too, so you need to fly at a range of weights.

Just to make sure we realize the argument ultimately goes in circles...

They are (at least theoretically) monitoring your actual ASE compliance in near real time. So if you violate the envelope they will send you a nasty-gram and you are kicked off the island until you fix it. So... today even if you’ve got your fancy piece of section 2-ish paper you could still receive one of these nasty-grams. Then you have to go do engineering and/or troubleshooting to figure out what went wrong at what part of your envelope.

So why not skip all that work until you see whether you need it? If by empirical measurement you never go outside the ASE envelope because you never are in RVSM airspace at some problem weight and airspeed, then who cares? If a tree falls in the woods....

The FAA via the ADSB monitoring has, like it or not, ultimately made themselves the only measurement of ASE that counts. All of the engineering and testing that Neema just went through still had to be verified by the FAA test and on an ongoing basis he is still subject to being disqualified by that same FAA test. Why should that same FAA test not be good enough to demonstrate compliance in the first place since it is going to be the final arbiter anyway?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 04:11 
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Username Protected wrote:

The FAA via the ADSB monitoring has, like it or not, ultimately made themselves the only measurement of ASE that counts. All of the engineering and testing that Neema just went through still had to be verified by the FAA test and on an ongoing basis he is still subject to being disqualified by that same FAA test. Why should that same FAA test not be good enough to demonstrate compliance in the first place since it is going to be the final arbiter anyway?


I struggle with that too, Jon.

My current understanding is that the NAARMO height monitoring test (15 minutes straight and level) doesn't capture the full RVSM envelope. Why not? No idea. It'd be great if it were a full blown prescribed test.

My guess is the FAA may think it's too complicated. Look how many people botched ADS-B performance runs.

Or they don't have the resources to cook up the program.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Epic LT
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 06:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
The FAA via the ADSB monitoring has, like it or not, ultimately made themselves the only measurement of ASE that counts. All of the engineering and testing that Neema just went through still had to be verified by the FAA test and on an ongoing basis he is still subject to being disqualified by that same FAA test. Why should that same FAA test not be good enough to demonstrate compliance in the first place since it is going to be the final arbiter anyway?


You are conflating certification with monitoring. They have greatly eased the monitoring aspect (at least for continental US) but the certification is unchanged.

They really, really do not want you to bust altitude just because you had no idea what your ASE is.

Neema's test is different than the NAARMO monitoring.


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