“Karens” selling planes...

“Woke” airplane dealers...


Dealers are in sales, most likely not selling their own equipment, the only question that should be asked is “How would you like to pay for this?”

In 1992, I bought a new Pitts S2-B. I had gotten about two hours of training with a fellow in Nashville who was well known in the Pitts family. When I got to Afton, I got the tour and another hour with the factory pilot before departing the next morning. At some time in my visit, he "cautioned" me to not feel too familiar with the airplane until I got some hours under my belt. He didn't have to tell me that, it is my nature. He also told me that they had multiple cases of experienced pilots, he specifically said airline pilots, who had picked up airplanes in Afton and killed themselves on the way home.

If it was a lie, I'm just parroting it, not telling it.

If a man doesn't have enough sense to get himself properly trained in a complex or difficult to fly airplane, you aren't going to successfully change his ways in a chance meeting. I sold my beautiful 2000 Mooney Bravo to a professional Challenger pilot who lived in Moscow and flew for a billionaire oligarch. He was going to keep the airplane in the U.S. and make regular trips over to tour the country. I flew with him for about three hours trying to get him a feel for the Bravo. I suggested more, HE COULD NOT ADEQUATELY FLY THE AIRPLANE. He refused. He and a buddy loaded up and left for Florida. Two days later a mechanic in Florida called me to ask about "damage' to the exhaust mounting and whether the bent cowling had been there at the time of purchase. Uh, no. He had obviously slammed the nose on the pavement during a landing.

Sticking myself into another's judgement has never turned out good for me or them. If they need to be told, it probably is a waste of time.

Jg

I don’t have any answers to this question, but I will note that when an incompetant private pilot failed to engage anti-ice, stalled a private jet on short final to my local field, hit a house, set the house afire, and killed a Mommy and her young child in a horrific accident, it caused a huge uproar in the local community and empowered all the “close the airport” activitsts.

If the smoking hole these people create happens to have been inhabited by human beings it has a ripple effect on all of us...

Be Safe!

Tim

Fair point, and it highlights the complexity of what, on the surface for many of us, might seem a straightforward argument.

From the perspective of individual freedom and individual responsibility, the blame goes to the incompetent jet pilot. A reasonable individual would mourn the loss of innocents on the ground, but place the blame squarely on the individual who actually caused their deaths. This is akin to a drunk driver crossing the median and taking out a family on the highway. We do not blame the dealership who sold him the car for doing so when he was a known alcoholic.

The problem that we face is that aviation is treated differently by the public. We are held to different standards, and viewed through a lens of ignorance. Reasonable people, if they understood the facts, would likely come to a different conclusion. On the other hand, if enough pilots act irresponsibly, then action will be taken to protect the non-flying public. This is where the discussion crosses into the "police yourselves" zone, and we circle back to whether the plane should be sold to the under-qualified pilot.

I'm on the side of saying that the sale is independent of the pilot. The buyer may be planning to hire a pilot, or to fly with a qualified pilot while gaining experience and ratings. Even if not, the philosophical question of who's business is it remains. Practically, a determined individual will get the plane either way. If it were me I could easily find a type rated pilot to pose as the buyer to get me the plane.

What it comes down to is that irresponsible individuals take a toll on the rest of us. It has always been that way, and it always will. Trying to stop them is very difficult to do without negatively affecting those who are doing nothing wrong.

I have a running joke with a friend that the great thing about being an adult is that you can buy anything you want, even those things you have absolutely no business owning. Usually this is pertaining to things like chainsaws, speed boats and sports cars. There have been good opinions expressed on both sides of the matter and it can be a difficult decision or outcome, but I ALWAYS err on the side of individual freedoms.

Back in the mid 70's we had a guy in our aerobatic club that had lots of money and ego.
He had no common sense. No instrument rating.

He bought a turbocharged pressurized Polish Buzz Bomb (C-337). He lost his license when he called center for flight following at 19,500'.

You mean he let a little thing like that stop him? Pfah! What a wimp.

You mean he let a little thing like that stop him? Pfah! What a wimp.

You mean he let a little thing like that stop him? Pfah! What a wimp.

Unfortunately, history has proven time and time again that many cannot understand that concept.

Sadly the ‘sue everyone involved any time anything goes wrong’ culture in the USA can be seen in some of the comments in this thread.

We used to treat adults as if they WERE adults. They were responsible for their own decisions and actions.

Now the lawyers line up and try to convince a judge and jury to attach blame (and financial loss) to someone else. Sadly they are successful far too often.

How many of us have large liability insurance coverage on our homes just in case some passerby trips and falls walking on our sidewalk?

Our society would be better served if people were held responsible for their own actions.

My former employer owned (among other things) numerous income properties. At one of our office buildings we had a rainy day and an elderly lady came in to see her Doctor and *claimed* she fell in our lobby and was hurt. She sued us for quite a significant sum of money.

Luckily for us we had security cameras that recorded and saved the recordings and we were able to prove that she did not fall in our lobby (or anywhere, as near as we could tell).

In a fair and just society she should have been prosecuted for the attempted fraud that she committed, but our society doesn’t do that. We allow the predators (such as this lady) to prey as many times as they like. Had we not had security camera footage I have no doubt that our insurance company would have given her a tidy sum of money just to ‘go away’ since we would not have had any proof that she was not telling the truth.

If people were held responsible for their own actions (such as tripping on the floor of a lobby, or buying an airplane) these types of nuisance law suits would not be allowed to exist.

I don't know if I agree with all you folks who say that not selling an airplane to a clueless, low-time, possibly reckless pilot won't prevent an accident because, "if they're determined they'll buy it from someone else."

I think that making a decision not to sell an airplane to that person may just cut one link in the accident chain. At least it will for the flight home; at most it may lead that pilot to re-think his/her plan and buy something more "reasonable."

You just can't let greed get in the way.

The ‘buy it from someone else’ theory has been ridiculously successful in the illegal drug trade.

Just sayin’.....

Greed doesn’t have to enter into it. What if the buyer doesn’t intend to fly the plane, but instead are going to hire a professional to fly it? What if they intend to get their IR in it with a qualified instructor and fly with an experienced pilot after that? Would you call them a liar? What if they are a liar, would you know? You have a right to not sell your plane if you don’t want to, but how far into the other person’s life do you intend to intrude?

We talk about this in a very black and white sense but it is neither.

Only once in my life did I buy an airplane I was qualified to fly.

I vowed never to do that again.

Mike C.