banner
banner

23 Sep 2021, 13:11 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Aviation Fabricators (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 177 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 12  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 21:29 
Offline

 Profile

Joined: 12/05/19
Posts: 5
Post Likes: +11
Hello All

I’m seeking some feedback on best plane to haul 4 to 6 or 8 people 500 miles. I currently fly a meridian and I really like it, it fits my current mission well. In the last 3 years I went from a 2010 G1000 Meridian to TBM 850 and back to a 2004 meridian. The current 2004 Meridian has 2 750s and I really like it but the Meggit will need to be replaced at some point, it all works great for now. My company has been expanding the last few years and we have 3 locations in 2 states. The Main business trip is About 450 miles and usually just me and maybe 1 or 2 so far this is perfect for the Meridian. I was planning to buy an M600 and sell the Meridian, but the deal didn’t work out on the M600, the biggest motivation was to avoid the downtime for the G500txi and EIS upgrade. I also see a need coming in the future to fairly regularly transport field guys between offices, 4 to 6, occasionally even 8 guys. I am now thinking I will keep the Meridian and get a 2nd plane to transport people. I was thinking a 441, maybe overkill but would also be nice for the occasional longer trips I make personally. I could own the Meridian and a 441 for about the same capital as a used M600. This would also give me another plane to use while I do the G500 upgrade on the meridian. I fly 300+ hours a year so it’s hard to come to terms with an 8 to 12 week downtime. So I am concluding that 2 planes would give me some mission diversity and help solve the downtime and I can use contract pilots to transport employees while I’m doing other things in the Meridian. There would be some added fixed costs but I am liking the idea of having the backup when Maintanence issues come up.

With the backstory told, I’m seeking thoughts on the 2nd plane, with the primary mission being 1200 to 1500 payload 500 miles. I think a 421C would do close to this, not 8 people but 6, and would be considerably less capital upfront. I definitely favor turbine engines and the 441 would definitely do the job and provide incredible range when needed. A 425 would also meet the mission and is between the 421 and 441 on capital. There are also others, maybe an MU2? Are these 40 years old planes dispatch reliable if properly maintained?

Appreciate hearing your thoughts

Bryan


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 21:51 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/29/13
Posts: 1083
Post Likes: +399
Location: KRMN
Aircraft: Baron 58P
:popcorn:


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 22:27 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/19/14
Posts: 132
Post Likes: +63
Location: St. Louis, MO (KSUS)
Aircraft: 1994 Bonanza A36
A 421 is great if you’re exercising her fairly regularly. How many hours/year do you envision using the second airplane? If dispatch reliability is your biggest concern then turbine has obvious advantages but, as you mentioned, these are all older planes with older systems


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 22:35 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/14/13
Posts: 4458
Post Likes: +2986
Aircraft: C90B Nxi
Why not C90? This is beechtalk btw


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 22:41 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 11/18/10
Posts: 454
Post Likes: +100
Location: Chicago
Aircraft: C441, C310N
Depends how important 8 adults are. A 421 will do 6 adults 500nm. If you need 8 it's a 441 or a bigger King Air.


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 22:51 
Online



User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 12366
Post Likes: +6521
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
Pilatus will do it all

_________________
http://calipilot.com
atp/cfii


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 23:56 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 1926
Post Likes: +1407
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C421, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
In the last 3 years I went from a 2010 G1000 Meridian to TBM 850 and back to a 2004 meridian.

That's a lot in 3 years...

Why?

_________________
Jack Stull
N421EE
C421 recurrent


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 00:28 
Offline

 Profile

Joined: 12/05/19
Posts: 5
Post Likes: +11
Username Protected wrote:
In the last 3 years I went from a 2010 G1000 Meridian to TBM 850 and back to a 2004 meridian.

That's a lot in 3 years...

Why?


The move to TBM was seeking more range and payload and involved a partner. The maintenance/ ops cost on the TBM was high that and some unexpected business / partner issues led to selling the TBM. I then bought another Meridian.

Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 00:32 
Offline


 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 13888
Post Likes: +17015
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: C560V
8 people in a 421 with an engine failure is a daunting siutation. A fair number of 421s have had engine failures and not made it back to the airport.

I think this mission has turboprop written all over it. You want the reliability, power, speed that a turboprop offers if you carry 8 people 500 miles.

For me doing that job, I would choose a long body MU2. It will do the job very reliably, probably more reliable than a 441 and hugely more reliable than a 421, plus a lot cheaper than any King Air. The entrance and egress is very passenger friendly, more so than the door for a 421 or 441, or even a Citation. It would be flown in the low 20s and have plenty of fuel to do the trip non stop with 8 people on board even in the worst winds.

If I had personal uses for the plane outside that mission, I'd look more towards the 441 for the range and speed it offers for long personal trips. If your mission grows to 1000 miles, the 441 can do that, the MU2 can't (assuming 8 people).

A 425 won't be a good choice, slower and just as expensive to operate as a 441, plus smaller cabin.

A King Air 200 is the orthodox choice. A Pilatus can do it, will cost as much to fly as the MU2 or 441, maybe more, and cost more to acquire than anything discussed above.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 00:41 
Online


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12142
Post Likes: +4758
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
I had a 421 for awhile and got it specifically with the idea of 8 person trips - probably 4 adults 4 kids.

Although a 421 (and 425, same cabin) can seat 8 people it is quite impractical

1) the 7th seat is a side facing belted potty
2) the 8th seat is just stuck on top of what is usually a cargo area. hard to describe, but not somewhere you put someone you like for 2 hours.
3) it's nearly impossible to stay in CG with adults in the back. If you're hauling max payload in the nose ... maybe. But the back two seats are really only practical for small children

I don't think the 421 with 8 people is a particular problem for engine outs. Being near aft CG limit isn't great, but the main thing is climb. The 421 at gross (ESPECIALLY if it's increased with VG's) climbs pathetically at MSL 15C. 1000 MSL and 80F, forget about it. Doesn't matter if the pounds are people or fuel.

A 425 would fix the performance issue but not #1-3 above.

If your mission is 8 people, you really need the 441. It will fit 2 up front and 6 in the cabin.

As for 40yo turbines ... yep quite reliable.


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 00:53 
Offline


 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 13888
Post Likes: +17015
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: C560V
How about a Citation II?

I don't know your budget for purchase or operating, or your pilot qualifications, but you can pick those up for what a good 421 will cost you and it will fly 8 people nicely for 500 miles easily. Passengers won't wear headsets.

Will cost about double what an MU2 would cost for the trip, but be faster, do it with less weather issues, and be safer than any turboprop.

At the other end, you could buy a 402, unpressurized, what Cape Air uses for passenger service. Probably the cheapest way to haul 8 people.

It all comes down to your money versus capability tradeoff.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 02:07 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 05/31/13
Posts: 947
Post Likes: +449
Company: Docking Drawer
Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
Another consideration is how happy will you be in a 40 year old airplane vs the relatively new airplanes you've been flying? The only airplane out of the candidates being discussed that can be upgraded to a modern autopilot is the C425 and 421. I don't think the 421 is a good fit so it only leaves the 425. Besides avionics (which can be upgraded) will you be OK with older systems, cracked plastic, scratched or unreadable placards, less than enthusiastic factory support (with the possible exception of the MU2 maybe), etc? For what it's worth, you can turn any airplane into something that looks new but it's a whole lot of work, time, and money. I can tell you that it will be impossible to find a 425 or 441 that doesn't need work to bring it up to the look/feel/smell of the new airplanes you've been flying. Depending where you go it's not always easy to get a shop to fix all that little stuff even if you offer them a blank check. Avionics shops install avionics but they don't necessarily know how to remove the power quadrant and send it out to be re silkscreened. Or where to find replacement air vents because the ones in your "new" 425 look like they came out of a junkyard 1982 Ford Fiesta (they probably did). I've been picking away at mine for 5 years and finally I've been thorough pretty much every system and I'm happy with what I have but it took years and tens of thousands of dollars. You could do it all at once at the right shop but you'd need someone who knows the airplane to help you specify what needs to be done and how. Anyway since you've been flying some nice newer airplanes I just thought I'd bring that up because it could be an issue for some people. The good news is that even if you spend tons of money upgrading something like a 425 to make it better than new, it will still be way cheaper than a PC12 or any of the airplanes you've been flying. It will just take some patience to get there.

_________________
http://www.dockingdrawer.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 07:52 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3950
Post Likes: +1477
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
If you are flying 300 hours a year, a C-441 will cost you less to operate than any piston Twin Cessna and will be significantly more reliable. Find a good shop that knows 441's (and it doesn't necessarily have to start with a "W") and you will find the airplane is an extremely reliable workhorse.

Personally, if I were flying that many employees around on a normal basis a piston airplane would not even be a consideration.... and I own and love piston Twin Cessna's...


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 09:09 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 03/16/13
Posts: 41
Post Likes: +87
Aircraft: MU-2 Marquise
I've owned a 421C, 441, and now an MU-2 Marquise. Quick thoughts on each below, please feel free to pm me for more info.

421C - fantastic plane. Incredibly comfortable (we flew with 7 pax a lot), very quiet. Generally could do 800nm into a reasonable headwind. Can carry a ton of baggage. It would be ideal for your mission if you can get right with moving back to piston after operating turbine (I couldn't, see below). Plus, it sounds like this is partially serving as a plane to bridge the gap while your other one is down, so a few days of training is better than a week long initial. I very strongly considered these recently before I went MU-2. Biggest downside was mx hassles. It requires a specialty shop and it was down a lot for little things. Never had gigantic mx bills, more like death by a thousand cuts. High hassle factor.

441 - insane performance. Flew coast to coast non-stop countless times. I definitely got spoiled knowing I could just top it off and go anywhere or get on top of nearly all wx. Might be overkill for your mission, but even when I did 400nm trips I never once thought to myself, "I wish I had a smaller plane for this." Very comfortable, maybe a little louder inside than the 421C. Same issue as 421C - mx. But with an extra 0 at the end of every bill. When it worked properly, it was a dream. But it was down a lot and it requires a specialty shop (or someone who knows 441's well). There's a big 3 that are expensive, but several other gurus that charge less. I spent a ton of money and time shopping for the right one before jumping in, so it's not like I didn't appreciate the importance of finding a "good" one before I bought it. Maybe I just had bad luck the last time around, but I did not consider 441's during my search over the last eight months because of my mx experience. I know Jason has had much better experience operating his 441, but my 441 cost significantly more to operate per hour than the 421 and it wasn't even remotely close. Absent mx hassle/cost, I never would have sold the 441.

MU-2 - only about 40 hours into ownership, so limited experience. I was reluctant to go back to piston once I became accustomed to turbines. Despite my mx experiences with the Cessna's, I still looked at them occasionally given the performance and comfort, trying to talk myself into them. I recall buying a v-tail 10 years ago and the broker told me, "tip tanks are the best speed mod." I have since amended that to instead be, "Dependability is the best speed mod." It doesn't matter how fast the 441 is if it's down all the time. Given the MU-2's reputation for reliability and my #1 requirement being dependability, I pursued a long-body. I also have a mx shop much closer, so that helps. Slightly slower and slightly less comfortable than the 441 (at least in pilot seat, pax love the back), but otherwise has been great. First phase inspection was a fraction of the cost of the Conquest. Compared to the 441, I miss range and service ceiling the most. But I took that tradeoff in exchange for reliability. Insurance was also higher than the Cessnas. Solid training is a must, it's hard to describe but it just flies differently. The Cessnas were darn near idiot proof (and I tried). The MU-2 requires attention. I can tell it will become second nature with time, but those first few hours were very humbling. Once you learn how to communicate in its language, it's a dream. My last two approaches were much more solid than in the 441. It's going to be a lengthy learning curve, so you might spend too much time learning the plane rather than flying it during the downtime of the Meridian.

If you can find a good one and if you have mx close by, my vote would be for the 421 based on your parameters. Good luck.


Top

 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 11:42 
Offline

 Profile

Joined: 12/05/19
Posts: 5
Post Likes: +11
Great input thank you everyone. Thanks JP for the very detailed input. I think I would love the performance of a 441 however overall reliability is my highest priority and the 441 is definitely at the top of the acquisition budget if I do go the route of 2 planes.

I have also given some thought to a legacy jet. That would require a lot of training time to get typed and proficient but would certainly be fun to fly. I am also concerned about high ongoing ops costs. In my mind you can get over acquisition costs, but the high ops costs continue nagging at me.

Thanks again, I love hearing others thoughts and experiences. I have some time as the need to transport people isn’t regular yet. I will see how things develop, the need to transport 8 might be very occasional, if it’s mostly 4 or 5 that widens the options. I want to find something that meets the functionality of the routine transportation and is also fun to fly and gives me some added capacity for range/ payload for personal use.

Fly Safe

Bryan


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 177 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 12  Next



Switlik Survival Products (Banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2021

.southseas-85x50-2021.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.heartlandsm.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.McPeck_85x50.jpg.
.carpenter-85x50.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.tat-85x100.png.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.SierraTrax_85x50.jpeg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.EagleFuelCellsTriple.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.westsky.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.Aspen_85x100_2021.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.xnaut-85x50.jpg.
.komn-85x50.png.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.concorde.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.airpower-85x50.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-07-26.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.avidyne-85x50-2017-11-22.jpg.
.Flaremeter_85x50_v2.png.
.SCA.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.avionicssource-85x50.jpg.
.methodseven-85x50.jpg.
.priori-85x50.jpg.
.instar.jpg.
.dshannon.jpg.
.greenwich-85x50-2020-08-10.jpg.
.STLAir_85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.echelon-85x50.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.aerocrafter-85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.dynon-85x50.jpg.
.jaair-85x100.jpg.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.