In the USA maybe - doesn't work in Australia

What is the exchange rate?

Mike C.

1USD=AUD1.29.

Even then it doesn't work - just on fuel alone. We pay about AUD2.20 per LITRE where you guys pay what US$4-5/USG?

A$2.20x3.785= A$8.32/USG

Having said that if I do the math - 300hp x A$1.29 an IO550 powered Bonanza like mine apparently costs A$387/hr.

Wish I hadn't done that

Making great strides. Are you getting a kickback too?
Epps does and so do most of the maintenance facilities. If you are advising a client to have a maintenance facility handle the HSI or overhaul, you're making a mistake. Plain and simple. That method adds so many more gotchas to the equation it's not even comparable.

Nope, they were a DOF shop back then. I wanted to make sure that Pratt honored any warranty components.

I will state that Covington does a better job than the shops you state. Just that simple. I did my homework. I spoke to at least 6 folks that did overhauls, HSI, mostly in the AG space. Craig C enlightened me as to what exactly a hot section and what is entailed. Not a lot of moving parts here, quite simple actually, all things considered. Just need the proper tooling and well taught mechanics. I even spoke with Paul Jones at length. He agreed that people without my methods and thought process are exactly why he has a job. He oversees what those fine facilities are doing and why. He's basically your calling 'bullshit' meter on the ground when they start taking things apart.

You telling me that the quality of the folks in Dallas Airmotive are better than Convington?
Simply not true. Are they charging more?
You betcha!!!!

Here's what I would like everyone on the boards to know.

Who owns Standard and Dallas?
Who owns Covington?

The ownership and leadership is critical in ANY business. I know, I used to run em, and I've sold them to people who do run them.

Chip, I like you man, but don't tell me that a Standard and Dallas are holding themselves to the same standard as Covington. Ain't possible mate, and it ain't even close.

I did not need a Paul Jones on the ground when I went to Covington in Tunica Mississippi.

You can see I feel strongly about this. As a guy selling into the owner flown market it behooves you to do the same.

I will state this clearly, if you send someone to Dallas through a maintenance facility, you are doing them a serious disservice.

we pay more like $3/USG, as little as $2 recently. All bets off if you’re at the likes of Aspen

Good question, I don’t really know, I do know that once they have your engine in pieces you’re at their mercy, which is why we recommend hiring someone.

My focus is the new and used aircraft market and aircraft resale value, so that’s always where I’m going to come from on an issue like this, I’m certainly not an engine expert, so I don’t know how much padding actually goes on.

I do know the market perception of these companies, and I also know more than I’m willing to say on here.

What you're describing is an opportunity to take advantage of other brokers' misguided prejudice to pick up an equally good airplane for a discount. I presume that's what you're telling your clients?So if your client is planning to keep the plane for a few years, you're saying by then the prejudice may well have disappeared and they may get full price reselling the plane they bought at a discount. I'll bet your clients are happy to hear that.

I'm starting to discount this mystique assigned to premium turbine overhaul shops. I sense it may be a marketing construct more than a practical one.

The parts are the same. Wheels, blades, stators, shrouds, liners, impellers, etc. So that's not the value proposition for a premium shop.

So it must be somehow in the care with which they are assembled. But realistically, there's a very prescribe procedures of how to do this. Assembly sequence, balancing, torques, clearances, etc. There is really not much left to the discretion of the assembler so I don't know where this supposed premium craftsmanship comes into play.

With the right tools and following the right procedure, the outcome should be a fine working engine whether it is employee #157 at a big premium overhaul shop or Joe Main Guy at a small shop.

Part of this is that I've research airplanes with engines overhauled from various shops, PWC, Dallas, and smaller ones. There is no obvious correlation between the shop and the results as far as I can tell. A pair of PWC overhauled JT5D-5A engines with 800 SMOH both had burner can issues requiring hot section repair (discovered on a borescope prebuy). Another pair on their 4th overhaul and 3000 SMOH from a small shop had never had an unscheduled event (borescope also, looked very nice). And so forth.

Obviously my sample size of about 30 engines or so isn't very statistical. The overhaul shop seemed to be the least sensitive factor in engine service history. How the engine was used and who used it was FAR more important.

I'm sure the proper upstanding brokers, owners, and engine shop guys who value the premium shop will dutifully defend their value, but for me, if a shop can HSI or OH my engine according to the book and do it right, I don't see much value in paying substantially more for a name in the log books.

It should be noted that many of the smaller shops are started by and/or hire folks that came from the premium shops. If the sales pitch is "the guy" doing the work, then what is the difference if its is the same guy?

Another thing that I found refreshing about the small shops is they would give you a straight answer to some basic questions. The premium shops didn't get back to me or took days, and their answers were often not very useful.

Mike C.

My thought for the HSI was you might have a set of blades that are just within tolerances, just barely. One shop might grind them down a bit and return to service, another might replace them. Same for some other parts. So one costs 6k and the other costs 30k. Which is better? Well if I'm going to run the engine to TBO or I'm going to sell it soon, I might prefer one choice over another. If I'm a buyer I might like to see Dallas or Pratt in the logs knowing they likely replaced a bunch of stuff with new. I want to believe a 6k HSI is as good or better than a 30k one, but not totally convinced that passes the smell test.

As an owner, I don't want an overhaul shop using criteria they impose beyond what the manual says.

If the part meets tolerance, it meets tolerance. If it doesn't, it doesn't. The tolerance was set with margins determined by engineering requirements. It will work if it is within spec. The criteria accounts for the wear that will occur during the next HSI/OH cycle.

It should not be subjective and thus influenced by possible revenue motivations of the shop.

Imagine if this was a piston engine:

"Your crankshaft journals are within spec, but only by 3 thou, so we decided you needed a new one."

If selecting a premium shop means they can spend your money like that, I definitely would prefer something else.

Mike C.

As an owner I'd want to be consulted and consider it. To borrow your piston analogy, Continental says anything over 30/80 psi is a serviceable jug. One owner might say "good enough for me", another might say "top em all" and another might land somewhere in the middle. A trusted shop will make recommendations based on experience. I don't have enough info to know if the reported 6k vs 30k is comparing apples to apples.

we pay more like $3/USG, as little as $2 recently. All bets off if you’re at the likes of Aspen

Yep the days of filling up EZU out of RED with the gang to BNA for a $100 burger are long gone.

Andrew

The original design data to know how the part was made.

The engineering effort to replicate the design.

The testing to verify the design works properly.

The documentation to get the FAA to approve the design.

The manufacturing know how to make the part.

The quality control system to monitor and track making the part.

The FAA PMA approval of your manufacturing and quality system.

The distribution system to deliver the part.

The marketing department to sell the part.

The liability insurance to stay in business if the part fails.

And finally, the capital to put all that together and hope you succeed before you go bankrupt.

So, not much, really, go for it.

Mike C.

What I know is that the folks at Covington have what it takes: integrity, knowledge, workmanship and more.
https://www.covingtonaircraft.com/turbine-engines/corporate
They are my #1 choice