Does anyone have data on the Williams powered s2 range useful load and fuel burn ?

I moved into a williams powered S2 a year ago from a commander 1000. I love the airplane!! We have the clifford development mod with FJ44-3A engines and a Universal cockpit. Very happy to answer any questions. I use CJ3 numbers on fltpln.com and ETE and fuel burns are always very very close. We are at or near gross weight on almost all our trips. FL400 or 410. I find that 430 is a bit doggy on airspeed until I've burned off 1500 lbs of fuel. 390 TAS heavy. 400 light. significantly faster in the 30's. 410 is usually 25 minutes depending on ISA. insanely short field performance. 1000 lbs first hour. and then 880. usually 820 lbs third hour. I fly CYVR to Cabo non-stop averaging 4:15 to 4:45 depending on winds and which runway and STAR is active. using anywhere from 3800 - 4500 lbs. Fuel fuel is 5800.. Our airplane is heavy because of the interior and avionics. I think more typical useful load with fuel fuel is 500 - 600 lbs. It's rare to need full fuel. Can't say enough good things about this airplane and most importantly, it's a dream to fly..

This is how you make an entrance, folks. Great first post, thanks for the intel.

Fuel burn is penalty for speed in the 30s I assume?

-J

That might be the best first post I have ever read on BT!

Hope we hear some more from Mike, some pics would be awesome!

Hi Mike, you guys purchased 3SC from my employer, it was a great airplane. I am glad to hear you are enjoying it! I flew the airplane to Uvalde, TX for the prebuy and as I recall, it was a pretty clean inspection. Very few Williams converted SII's are as well equipped, the Universal 890r system with Universal FMS's are a great addition to the airplane. The only thing the airplane needed was an increase in Mmo with the Williams engines, there is a great deal of unused thrust in cruise. Have fun!

Let us know when you do West coast to Hawaii!

For anyone interested. I just got a call from a friend with an immaculate SII for sale. Its loaded with duel 750s, Garmin radar, Garmin adsb in and out. There's plenty of time left on his engines ( over a 1000 hours left or more). This guy takes better care of his planes than anyone I've ever know. He's asking around $600k. PM me if your are seriously interested.

Which engines? Original or Williams?

Original w on condition blades.

I know Williams engines really add to the range, but the cost to own Williams is completely outrageous. Williams has a complete monopoly on their engines and they can charge what ever they want to AND THEY DO!

I've never understood how Williams gets away with it. Hasn't anyone ever gone after them for antitrust?

Williams has a complete monopoly on their engines and they can charge what ever they want to

The bold part sums it up right there. The second part of your statement is correct. Vote with your wallet and buy P&W. Or GE. Or SNECMA. Or Honeywell. Or PBS. Or....

I'd like to hear Mike Lever's thoughts on dealing with Williams and the TAP BLUE program. I'm assuming he is using the Williams program since he has the Williams engines on his S2.

Hi Mike, you guys purchased 3SC from my employer, it was a great airplane. I am glad to hear you are enjoying it! I flew the airplane to Uvalde, TX for the prebuy and as I recall, it was a pretty clean inspection. Very few Williams converted SII's are as well equipped, the Universal 890r system with Universal FMS's are a great addition to the airplane. The only thing the airplane needed was an increase in Mmo with the Williams engines, there is a great deal of unused thrust in cruise. Have fun!

It's a really good question about the Williams engine program. We came within spitting distance of purchasing an Ultra with half time engines and fresh hots. I figured that rather than pay for an engine program, it would be better to keep the cash as working capital and earn a return within our business. Hopefully buying another pair of mid time engines when the engines on the a/c came due. The numbers pencilled out better that way. But then I got really interested in the williams powered S2s and ended up making an offer on a Sierra machine that was not on program. It seemed like a really good buy until we got it into pre-purchase inspection. An ignitor had come apart and gone through the engine. Several of the HT blades were damaged. We didn't find out until after the test flight that Williams had advised the owner that the airplane shouldn't be flown. Long story short is that the repair could end up being very expensive. I can't quite remember but I think the quote was $400,000.. Wow. If the engine had been on program with Williams, everything would have been covered including FOD. There were some other really major and expensive issues with the airplane including hydraulic leaks, leaky fuel tanks, cracked windshield. The whole experience changed my thinking. I decided to buy the nicest and best maintained S2 that we could find ON program. I think we pay aprox $360 per hour (I might be slightly off) for TAP Blue and that covers everything. Our engines have 900 hours since new. We had the terrible luck with our own FOD incident at 9 hours. Williams sent 2 tech's out right away. They worked through the weekend. Finished the job exactly on schedule. Williams was great about it and fixed everything without complaint. I'll stay on program for the peace of mind at least until hots. At that point, which is some years off, we should have a really good handle on the maintenance and condition of these particular engines and might go off program and perhaps run the airplane out for another 2500 hours if there isn't any value to the airframe anymore. I should also note that Williams was very accomodating and flexible with us regarding program minimums when we were shut down during the early part of the covid crisis.

Randy makes a really interesting point about working to stay under VMO. Which also relates to the question of why I always bomb up to 400, 410 or 430g. It's not just about saving fuel.

I'm new to jet flying. After leaving commercial aviation many years ago, my first airplane was our beloved E55 Baron (and my first exposure to Beechtalk). I got the pressurization itch and moved over to a machen aerostar which was a mistake. I'll take the beech any day of the week! And then moved up to a Commander 1000 before making the jump into the jet. There is definitely a learning curve to flying a jet and I didn't find it to be anywhere near as easy as some people make out. At least that was my experience. Sim was hard. It was quite a challenge to become comfortable with the FMS. Especially when it does something very different than what I thought I had programmed it to do. Luckily I had a couple of very good mentors. I've put 200 hours on the airplane in the last 9 months and am cautiously becoming more comfortable.

The S2 is mach limited to .721. that didn't change with the new and bigger engines. The wing is supposedly identical to the C560 which is mach limited to .755. As a new jet guy, I wasn't expecting to have to work so hard to stay under VMO. Once you are 1500 lbs or so below MGTOW, you have to keep pulling the power levers back to avoid overspeed. I've learned to try and stay between .710 and .715. Less in mountain wave. I'm not going to admit to having been in mountain wave and seen .730 in the blink of an eye. I talked to another S2 guy who told me about williams airplane that is routinely flown 20 knots over when he's light. I'm not surprised that the airplane will do that but it's not for me.

So ref the question about why I fly high. It's partly about lower fuel consumption although the engine program costs can be more than fuel these days. It's easy (and fun) to get the airplane up to FL400 or higher. Max cabin altitude is somewhere between 7 and 8. That almost always gets me to an altitude that's back to ISA or close. It can be ISA + 15 in the low 30's and that's a performance drag. It's super eerily quiet that high which is cool. You are up above the airlines and direct routings are usually approved. And because you are mach limited whether in the 30's or higher, there is not a big difference in airspeed.. It's cool stuff and feel very lucky to be able to fly this airplane. I can't imagine any other jet that would be a better fit for us..