28 Mar 2024, 12:57 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2019, 11:12 |
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Joined: 09/17/15 Posts: 153 Post Likes: +150 Location: LIMG / EDDK
Aircraft: PA-28 / C172
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Adam, I'm cross-quoting you from the latest PC12 thread (hope I'm not violating any rule), don't want to pollute more that discussion: Username Protected wrote: Avanti came with the old ProLine II system which was CRT based. Only the Avanti II has the updated PL21. But I think one would find that updating the PL21 to ADS-B/WAAS etc will cost just about the same as putting a completely new Garmin panel into the older Avanti, which is what Anthony is going to do. I think that's a smart play.
Kind of the same scenario exists with the early generation CitationJets. The pity for the old Avanti's is nobody has ever developed an STC which includes replacement of the old Air Data System. This is why the Airspeed, Altimeter and Altitude preselector are always still on the instrument panel. In addition, on the RH, the IS&S Altimeter required for RVSM operations. Getting rid of those items requires deep interface to the Autopilot System and knowledge of RVSM SSEC parameters. Nobody want to pay for, and Garmin (or any other supplier) shall be deeply involved. It's not just a matter of installing someting, you have to adapt it to something very peculiar to this A/C. The same story may be true for other A/C too, but larger potential customer base may let the big players to invest on this kind of upgrades. It is indeed true that adding ADS-B Out to the PL21 Avanti II costs a lot: but most of the total price is related to the upgrade required to some of the Collins stuff... Ciao, Daniele
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 19 Oct 2019, 11:35 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Anyone have an idea what it will cost to upgrade an Avanti II to ADSB with either Collins or Garmin equipment?
I haven’t been watching prices on for sale aircraft so don’t have a feel for whether those costs, not to mention gear overhaul or replacement, are already factored in to asking prices or whether the market for buyers will Improve after they’ve become lawn darts in 10 weeks?
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 19 Oct 2019, 22:35 |
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Joined: 03/06/13 Posts: 36 Post Likes: +40 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Aircraft: BE350, BD700
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We're looking at acquiring an Avanti. I just got a "budgetary" quote yesterday from a Piaggio Service Center:
For an Avanti II (with PL21 avionics), ADS-B only is $85K. ADS-B + LPV is $200K.
For an Avanti I with factory original standard avionics, there is a Garmin GTN750 / G600 upgrade, which not only modernizes the entire panel but also adds ADS-B and LPV. It's $250K. (It is my opinion that much of this upgrade can be recouped on resale, as the original avionics are now VERY dated).
Gear overhaul is $315K for the original Messier gear. Upgrading to the new Magnaghi gear via an STC (currently only available for the Avanti II) is 450K. This gives you the same gear setup as on the new Evo (aka Avanti III), which means improved steering and less expensive 15 year overhauls. I'm not sure there is an economic argument for this one.
My eyes are still watering.....
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 20 Oct 2019, 03:35 |
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Joined: 09/17/15 Posts: 153 Post Likes: +150 Location: LIMG / EDDK
Aircraft: PA-28 / C172
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I don't have any value to share, but some thoughts that may be useful. Prices may vary a lot, also depending on actual A/C configuration. When talking about Avanti II, you may have different options: 1. Going for Piaggio SB. This is the cleanest and more integrated solution, but _very_ expensive! Piaggio policy for supporting the existing fleet is to oblige to update _everything_ to the latest production configuration . So, for an older A/C, ADS-B Out compliance brings in FMS 4.1 Update, IOCs, SBAS GPS, DCU/EDC, Annunciator Panel, etc. While it is true that you get some "side" benefits as RNP LPV, it is true that you also get the "full packet" including something that you don't require (such as SW updates to handle scimitar prop or increased range). Piaggio was working to provide some cheaper options, similar to point 2 below (because, technically speaking ADS-B Out compliance can also be achieved with old FMS 3.0 and non-SBAS GPS), at least for EASA A/Cs. 2. Going for a third party STC based on Rockwell-Collins equipments. Cost will be a lot cheaper, still maintaining integration with the PL21 Radio Tuning (RTU/CDU). The upgrade can be as simple as appliyng some Collins SB to the existing TDR-94 transponders and adding a couple of "smart" annunciators to the instrument panel. STC must be similar to other PL21 A/C. IJSC, BHE, CMD all have something viable, I'm sure well below the figures quoted by Alan above. 3. Going for someone else transponders. Only transponders (as you can't remove PL21). You'll get something _not_ integrated with the existing PL21 Avionics, you'll need to find space for new control panels and equipments, modify wirings, etc. This will affect TCAS interface and operations. Your mileage may vary. I don't have any reference for this, but I believe this path is _not_ interesting for an Avanti II. In my opinion option 2 is the way to go, if you only need ADS-B Out compliance. If you are also interested in RNP LPV capabilities, option 1 becomes interesting (and the only one available). Hope this helps. EDIT: The attached image is an excerpt of the Collins suggested upgrade path for Pro Line 21 in support to point 2 above (so ALL PL21 A/Cs, not only Piaggio). All the Avanti II A/Cs falls already inside Package 4, which set the minimal requirement to upgrade the TDR-94 transponders to the correct P/N through some SBs (or replacement, in case of very old P/N). Of course, costs for certification activities and installation are a matter of the STC holder and installer activities.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 20 Oct 2019, 19:32 |
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Joined: 03/03/11 Posts: 1845 Post Likes: +1819
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: We're looking at acquiring an Avanti. I just got a "budgetary" quote yesterday from a Piaggio Service Center:
For an Avanti II (with PL21 avionics), ADS-B only is $85K. ADS-B + LPV is $200K.
For an Avanti I with factory original standard avionics, there is a Garmin GTN750 / G600 upgrade, which not only modernizes the entire panel but also adds ADS-B and LPV. It's $250K. (It is my opinion that much of this upgrade can be recouped on resale, as the original avionics are now VERY dated).
Gear overhaul is $315K for the original Messier gear. Upgrading to the new Magnaghi gear via an STC (currently only available for the Avanti II) is 450K. This gives you the same gear setup as on the new Evo (aka Avanti III), which means improved steering and less expensive 15 year overhauls. I'm not sure there is an economic argument for this one.
My eyes are still watering..... My shopping experience was most operators were realistic about gear costs and planes priced accordingly. You don’t have to do it part 91 but it will kill your resale. The full garmin panel is very nice in the Avanti 1.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Nov 2019, 11:08 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5520 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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This is music to my ears! The criticism of the P180 from a few operators I spoke to was that they thought it was short on range. But as you say Anthony, that's probably because they fly it flat out to get max jet-like speeds all the time. When I checked the POH, you could stretch that range quite a bit if you gave up some of that. I understand that we all want to go fast, but even pulled back to max range, the Avanti is still faster than just about any other turboprop or older jet out there. Seems like a reasonable sacrifice. Here's an example: 1800RPM max range a FL390 averages out at around 195lbs/hr/engine and about 295-300ktkts and a theoretical 2100nm range. You add the real world, climb and reserves you're probably looking at 1600-1800nm at 300kts. Not bad.
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_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Nov 2019, 16:56 |
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Joined: 06/24/18 Posts: 16 Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: bonanza
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Adam do your number include the extra range fuel tank available as an stc?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Nov 2019, 18:13 |
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Joined: 06/24/18 Posts: 16 Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: bonanza
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What would be the real world range with the extra fuel?
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