Well, it does depend what you get for the money. If the Eclipse jet could be revived as a complete, ready to fly in a few weeks kit at $400K, or even $600K, they'd be flying out the door. That said, the kit market does get much tougher as price goes up. On the one hand, people who have that kind of money generally don't have the time to spend years in their garage. And on the other hand, the used planes they could buy instead at that price get more capable. The Raptor's original promise of TBM performance was far beyond that of something like an older 182 that could be had for the same money. But now it's looking like delivering performance closer to a P210 or old Malibu for the price of, well, a P210 or an old Malibu, without any of the time and hassle of an Experimental.

The EAA says that's a myth. Of course anyone can sue anyone, for any amount of money, for anything, at any time, and a lawyer will never say "never", but according to the EAA, "In more than 60 years of homebuilding, we are unaware of a single successful lawsuit against an amateur builder."Certainly it's an option. There are amateur-built airplanes on Controller right now at prices up to and over a million dollars. I have a spreadsheet tracking almost all of the 90 or so Evolution kits sold. Not one, to my knowledge, has ever been destroyed rather than being resold out of fear of liability. And many are on their second or third owner.

The EAA says that's a myth. Of course anyone can sue anyone, for any amount of money, for anything, at any time, and no lawyer will ever say "never", but according to the EAA, "In more than 60 years of homebuilding, we are unaware of a single successful lawsuit against an amateur builder."

Well, he has pulled the gear lever and dropped her on the ground in the latest video.

The EAA says that's a myth. Of course anyone can sue anyone, for any amount of money, for anything, at any time, and a lawyer will never say "never", but according to the EAA, "In more than 60 years of homebuilding, we are unaware of a single successful lawsuit against an amateur builder."Certainly it's an option. There are amateur-built airplanes on Controller right now at prices up to and over a million dollars. I have a spreadsheet tracking almost all of the 90 or so Evolution kits sold. Not one, to my knowledge, has ever been destroyed rather than being resold out of fear of liability. And many are on their second or third owner.

After watching the most recent episode, I really hope he succeeds in making the plane... I know it’s not going to be on budget or on spec in terms of speed or UL but still... this guy is trying! I appreciate a good underdog story!

Certainly their fear is not a myth (and there is PLENTY of fear being spread around in aviation forums, notably this thread) - and the potential for liability exists - and that's true for selling just about anything. But the reality is, as Dave said and according to the EAA, that there are no known cases of successful lawsuits against experimental builders.

Further reading about this is here:
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/answers-to-questions-before-building?_id=172504857A194AE2AF35AB10C56D03CC&_z=z

I personally have sold two of the airplanes I built from a kit - and one of them became a total loss after a botched landing in Louisiana. Now consider that the one that was destroyed was also a Zenith 601XL, one of the very few experimental airframes the FAA actually issued a SAIB for and performed a "special review" of the airframe and suspended issuing airworthiness certificates for it. Yet I still sold the fun little airplane and someone bought it, enjoyed and flew it for quite a while, until the failed landing; proving once again that anything will sell to the right buyer for the right price. That was over 10 years ago now and no one has called or written me about it, so I'm guessing I'm ok in the liability department so far.

Considering buying an experimental aircraft, built, and possibly designed by, an amateur and stated as such on the sales agreement with a summary of the one-page EAA sales text being "yup, i did my best on this kit, but no guarantee I didn't royally screw it up and you may die", my fear would be much greater as the buyer than as the seller.

Even if the Raptor sells and becomes a flying pig, well, it's still just an experimental airplane. "You pays your money and you takes your choice".

If you want open of these just buy a Velocity.

Ron,

The problem is not just a successful lawsuit. I want some numbers on how many suits have been tried, and what was the cost to defend. Both the time/effort wasted and the money. You will notice that the EAA does not talk about this aspect. And I have asked them, and I am a member.

Tim

EXACTLY! Burt Rutan never lost in court, but he got out of the kit business after having to defend himself too many times. That right there is a smoking gun of the ambulance chaser industry...

Ya think any of them lost their practices as restitution for being party to putting him out of business? Yeah, I doubt it.

If you ask a tort law professor about him I wonder how many answer that they've never heard of him...

You only need to worry about lawsuits if you have assets. I spent all mine on airplanes and beer. No worries.

Tim, if your concern is limiting your potential to be sued, it's definitely not specific to the Raptor, but to selling any aircraft (or home, or car, or whatever). However, your exposure when selling a certified aircraft is likely much higher than an experimental. I say this because you have a much higher compliance issue to be concerned with in a certified aircraft. With an experimental airplane, the only real liability is "willful negligence", and that is a very high legal hurdle to cross - which is likely why there are no known successful suits.

I think an interesting comparison would be the number of lawsuits against sellers of certified aircraft vs experimental. And if you're willing to sell a certified airplane, then selling an experimental is less risk.

My personal experience, which I provided earlier, is based on two sales, but both buyers were fully aware of the experimental nature and the accompanying limited liability in addition to the the standard "as-is" agreement. Based on that, I don't see being sued as a significant problem and can only recommend that if fear of what could happen is an issue, then definitely avoid selling an airplane - or buying one in the first place, for that matter

But all of this ignores the whole point of building your own airplane - it's certainly not to make money at reselling it. But rather, it's to learn, create and enjoy the experience of building and then flying what you've built with your hands. I hear other builders talk about resale value of their E-AB aircraft, but I wonder why? Build it, fly it, own it. And if the day comes you decide to sell, do so at whatever the market provides at that time, enjoy the memories and move on.

It's a lot of work, no, a HUGE AMOUNT OF WORK, often thousands of hours, even for a simple airplane, to build and get an airframe to completion with a certificate of airworthiness; and many kits DO NOT GET COMPLETED. Even the excellent kits that Van's sells often do not get completed; consider that they've been in business for over 46 years and sell about 20-30 kits a month, and compare that to the just over 10,000 flying [it's much less than half]) - let alone a very new, complicated, not yet documented, unproven kit such as the Raptor. I'm saying this as I'm in the middle of building my fourth airplane, an RV-10; I'm very certain of what I'm saying.

Many folks buy a kit with the idea that they'll be able to have an airplane at a low cost - which is a solid reason to start, but if you're not into it for the recreation and education with a strong desire to build, it's going to be a long and winding road that likely ends with an unfinished kit sitting somewhere in storage or getting sold for whatever someone will pay - and everyone wants a "deal". Add to that fears about liability, insurance, resale, etc...well, just don't do it. Go get a nice used certified airplane and go enjoy it.

But if you like building and working with your hands, go for it; I've truly enjoyed years of building. And as an EAA lifetime member, I intend to keep doing it. Damn the lawyers - full speed ahead! Hey, anyone want to buy a -12 in about 3 more years?

You basically just recapped the GA industry and the struggles of staying in business (or not). Especially in the early '80's...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Aviation_Revitalization_Act

Burt was not the builder, he was the kit supplier. In the case of the Raptor, that would be Peter Muller, not a kit buyer/builder. Burt's case isn't relevant to builder liability. If you have any cases of a builder (who wasn't the pilot) being sued, please share. Preferably recent, after the changes in tort law of the early 1990s.

The EAA says that's a myth. Of course anyone can sue anyone, for any amount of money, for anything, at any time, and a lawyer will never say "never", but according to the EAA, "In more than 60 years of homebuilding, we are unaware of a single successful lawsuit against an amateur builder."Certainly it's an option. There are amateur-built airplanes on Controller right now at prices up to and over a million dollars. I have a spreadsheet tracking almost all of the 90 or so Evolution kits sold. Not one, to my knowledge, has ever been destroyed rather than being resold out of fear of liability. And many are on their second or third owner.