22 May 2025, 07:41 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II  Posted: 03 Mar 2019, 21:36 |
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Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 5182
Post Likes: +5173
Aircraft: C501, R66, A36
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Username Protected wrote: The part I liked about leasing was when the flight was done, I wrote up what was wrong with the bird and left the keys  But, it wasn't always there when you needed it. That’s why I have 7 jet leases. 3 550’s, 560, 2 CJ2’s, 1 C510. 3 type ratings mind you.
Mark,
What on earth do you do with 7 of these things?
Mike
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 03 Mar 2019, 21:36 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14277
Post Likes: +11963
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: It was fantastic. The instructor brought up the system quirk during ground school.
My thoughts were...who blows the gear without dropping the handle? Ha! Spoiler alert - I do.
We were issued runway heading departure with max performance to 3,000’. Boom, birds and double engine failure. I begin maneuvering back to the field visually. Right seater fumbles the checklist while focusing outside. I can’t get him to look at the one right next to the gear handle. By this time I need the drag of the gear (no SBs available without hydraulics). I pull gear control breaker, blow them down, land and then end up on emer brake handle while I chuckle at the excellence of the instructor and the scenario. Gotcha! That Joel is sneaky like that.
_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 01:31 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20028
Post Likes: +25074
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: What on earth do you do with 7 of these things? Increase the odds at least one of them is available for any given trip. I'd assume the leases are not exclusive to Mark. Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 02:32 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14277
Post Likes: +11963
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: What on earth do you do with 7 of these things? Increase the odds at least one of them is available for any given trip. I'd assume the leases are not exclusive to Mark. Mike C.
Mike it correct. I select the one that fits the mission best. If that’s taken then I take the second best. Etc. Always have options.
_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
Last edited on 04 Mar 2019, 09:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 08:48 |
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Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 5182
Post Likes: +5173
Aircraft: C501, R66, A36
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Username Protected wrote: Hey Michael Tarver-
You wrote that the "II is a much better airplane that the I". Can you explain your reasoning behind the statement? 1) Bigger cabin, significantly bigger 2) 35 kts faster 3) climbs better 4) 400nm more range 5) same or better short field performance 6) burns negligibly more fuel (maybe 15GPH) 7) Less expensive to buy 8 power brakes w/ antiskid
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 09:15 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14277
Post Likes: +11963
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Hey Michael Tarver-
You wrote that the "II is a much better airplane that the I". Can you explain your reasoning behind the statement? 1) Bigger cabin, significantly bigger 2) 35 kts faster 3) climbs better 4) 400nm more range 5) same or better short field performance 6) burns negligibly more fuel (maybe 15GPH) 7) Less expensive to buy 8 power brakes w/ antiskid
Downside is you need 500 turbine hours to fly iit alone
_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 09:24 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20028
Post Likes: +25074
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Mike it correct. I slept the one for the best mention. If that’s taken taken second best. Must have been a good party, though I doubt you remember much of it. Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 09:31 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14277
Post Likes: +11963
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Mike it correct. I slept the one for the best mention. If that’s taken taken second best. Must have been a good party, though I doubt you remember much of it. Mike C.
Combination of no sleep,fat fingers and ambien
_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 10:47 |
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Joined: 05/17/15
Posts: 142
Post Likes: +74
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Username Protected wrote: It was fantastic. The instructor brought up the system quirk during ground school.
My thoughts were...who blows the gear without dropping the handle? Ha! Spoiler alert - I do.
We were issued runway heading departure with max performance to 3,000’. Boom, birds and double engine failure. I begin maneuvering back to the field visually. Right seater fumbles the checklist while focusing outside. I can’t get him to look at the one right next to the gear handle. By this time I need the drag of the gear (no SBs available without hydraulics). I pull gear control breaker, blow them down, land and then end up on emer brake handle while I chuckle at the excellence of the instructor and the scenario. Gotcha! Yea, the dual eng failure changes the whole single pilot QRH discussion, sorry, thought you just had the hyd annunciation. I remember a FSI instructor giving us the option to motor one of the starters during a dual eng fail, just long enough to get the gear down. You get the hydraulics back on that side while it’s motoring. Just don’t motor it so long you drain the batt!
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 11:16 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20028
Post Likes: +25074
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I remember a FSI instructor giving us the option to motor one of the starters during a dual eng fail, just long enough to get the gear down. You get the hydraulics back on that side while it’s motoring. Just don’t motor it so long you drain the batt! Some of the legacy Citation manuals talk about getting hydraulic pressure just from the fan windmilling above 150 KIAS. Attachment: 560-glide-1.png The implication is that you get enough hydraulics to actuate gear and flaps if you keep 150 KIAS or greater without having to motor the engine. (removed) At least, this seems true for JT15D engines. Mike C.
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Last edited on 04 Mar 2019, 13:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 11:26 |
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Joined: 05/17/15
Posts: 142
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I’ve never flown the older models but I know on the CJ3 and CJ4 with the Williams engines, the starter turns the N2 shaft.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 11:43 |
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Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13407
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Company: 320 Fam
Aircraft: 58TC, E-55, 195
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Username Protected wrote: I remember a FSI instructor giving us the option to motor one of the starters during a dual eng fail, just long enough to get the gear down. You get the hydraulics back on that side while it’s motoring. Just don’t motor it so long you drain the batt! Some of the legacy Citation manuals talk about getting hydraulic pressure just from the fan windmilling above 150 KIAS. Attachment: 560-glide-1.png The implication is that you get enough hydraulics to actuate gear and flaps if you keep 150 KIAS or greater without having to motor the engine. I'd think the starter only motors N1 (turbine section) and not N2 (fan section), so I don't think you'd get hydraulic pressure by motoring the engine in these cases. At least, this seems true for JT15D engines. Mike C.
I believe you’ve got your N1 and N2 mixed up there.
Also - note the “550” has electric flaps vs the 560 you referenced.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Mar 2019, 12:19 |
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Joined: 09/07/09
Posts: 1040
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Company: Blue Aviation
Location: Bridgeport Texas
Aircraft: C414A/KA 200/CE-500
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Username Protected wrote: I remember a FSI instructor giving us the option to motor one of the starters during a dual eng fail, just long enough to get the gear down. You get the hydraulics back on that side while it’s motoring. Just don’t motor it so long you drain the batt! Some of the legacy Citation manuals talk about getting hydraulic pressure just from the fan windmilling above 150 KIAS. Attachment: 560-glide-1.png The implication is that you get enough hydraulics to actuate gear and flaps if you keep 150 KIAS or greater without having to motor the engine. I'd think the starter only motors N1 (turbine section) and not N2 (fan section), so I don't think you'd get hydraulic pressure by motoring the engine in these cases. At least, this seems true for JT15D engines. Mike C.
I’ve never left my flaps down after parking and had to motor an engine to bring the flaps up.
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