$0

To apply, send email to Fuel24@wfscorp.com.

Typically, the contract fuel providers will want credit references. In some cases, they may ask for an initial deposit (hasn't happened for me, but I've heard of it). There is generally no charge to be on their program.

CAA is the only fuel contract provider that costs money, $500 per year per aircraft. I easily make that up in a year over the other contract fuel providers. CAA has expanded to a lot more airports which helps. CAA also is active on managing fees by making FBOs publish what they are charging both during bids and during operation, and writing into more recent FBO contracts that fees can't be raised during the contract term (3 years typically).

Mike C.

I see what you did there. It’s coming.

FWIW, from the Cessna 525A (CJ2, not CJ2+) operations manual, it says 900 nm zero wind ISA, using "normal cruise thrust" at MGTOW (12,375 lbs), FL390, is 2312 lbs fuel, 2:59 flight time. Works out to 116 GPH block, 302 knots block.

If you fly it at max thrust, block is 137 GPH, 333 knots.

If you fly it at long range cruise, block is 103 GPH, 284 knots.

In real life, with vectoring, approaches, more headwind than tailwind,numbers will be worse.

Mike C.

We plan 1100 first hour and 700 second hour (FL410) on the M2's. Basically a CJ1.

Interestingly the CJ3+ runs almost the exact same fuel flow numbers on faster climb, faster cruise and 450 vs. 410.

Andrew.

I rarely have the heart to say this but it's painfully true.

I fly 135 (prior 91) and the retired 121 guys really do struggle with managing the flight/airplane. Not calling ahead, landing at airports with closed FBO's, Not securing paperwork for intl flights (our company makes this extremely easy too). Goofing the fuel planning (landing below min fuel multiple times) and frankly just really poor people skills. Watching some of them interact with pax is like nails on a chalkboard.

Approaching 91/135 pilots with a condescending tone is a rough equivalent to how .mil pilots look down on airline pilots. It's an eye rolling experience.

So Mark, do you think what the AAL instructor said is not relevant to Part 91 flying? He was addressing the flying pilot's interaction with automation. Most 121 guys were 91 and many fly both.[/quote]


Love Captain Vanderburgh. Since I sent this video specifically in response to a point you made re automation I think you know that I believe it is relevant to all aspects of flying.

The thing I chuckle at is the attitude of some 121 guys have about what is essentially a part 91 thread. Case in point...your whole demeanor changed re John L once you learned he has 121 experience. Much less condescending imo. Think about that.

In the last few weeks it has been 1) SP jets are not wise 2) why do you fly at 450 where it so risky?3) why would you use an iPad in a automated cockpit etc etc. it would be like me on a 121 board saying silly stuff because I didn’t get the differences between 91 and 121.

In contract flying we have occasion to have some retired 121 guys sit right seat. Enjoy the people, enjoy the stories.

What I have taken away from this experience is generally they are good stick and rudder guys who are used to the massive support systems of the airlines. Things they struggle with 1) flight planning. 2) filing 3) performance planning 4) fueling. Had once 747 guy ask me when I said “have them top it. With Prist” he asked if i really wanted 100% prist? How is that thought even possible? Welp because you had support system that did it for you. 5) you generally don’t do ice, coffee, papers or bags. I have had 121 guys just walk off the ship and straight to their cars while the lessee just stands their waiting for bags.

This seems to broadly be the case with 121retirees. Get a bunch of corporate pilots drunk and they will have you in laughing to the point of tears with similar stories.

It’s all good. Respect your service and knowledge. Feel free to share your biases. I get it. Just don’t ever expect me to dogmatically accept what you are peddling just because of you flew 121 for 30 years. It is a wonderful accomplishment to be sure. But it is so much different than what we do here. And to the extent you don’t understand something (like flight at 450 or ipads) i would word it as a question and try to be less judgmental. But that’s just me.[/quote

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My view of John and his first 60 hours in the jet changed not because he is prior 121, it's because this isn't his first rodeo in flying a jet , and everything that goes with that environment. From what I was seeing he progressed from a King Air into his first jet. If there was some statement indicating otherwise, I missed it, sorry.

The video you provided could have been a class given to Part 91, Part 135, or part 121. It was only about flying the plane, not about dispatch, FBO's, rental cars, or catering or handling passengers bags; it was about flying airplanes and managing the automation. If you didn't get anything constructive from it , and saw it as for "those 121 guys", you need to examine your attitude and realize that airplanes are airplanes and pilots are pilots, no matter what label put on them.

"Oh we fly Part 91, so we fly planes differently." Is that it? Go back and critique your video of your Las Vegas arrival and tell me that's how it's supposed to be done Part 91. Your 121 right seater was trying to give you a hint about the cross wind and save you some fuel in a go around/missed approach.

I did not want to add to this but....a current intl wide body captain friend of mine asked me with a straight face how I knew how much fuel to upload on my long flights.

I was speechless really as I processed what he was asking.

Check for dyslexia, as most of us call them 47’s and 27’s!

Murray

You call dispatch right?

If there is weather you walk down to the fuel truck "give me an extra 500"

I don't think that was his point at all. I think his point is that anything outside of flying the airplane is where 121 guys tend to fall flat. And flying by GA involves a lot of management of things outside flying the airplane.

You call dispatch right?

If there is weather you walk down to the fuel truck "give me an extra 500"

That was a pretty broad question, hard to tell what he was getting at. From his perspective (long oceanic flights) he has to consider all of the international fuel reserves , 2 or 3 different ETP's, re-release flight plans, alternate altitudes with commensurate differences in fuel burns, and calculate that into a "required fuel". Maybe he assumed you did all that too, but he might have meant how did you do it.

From his operation the answer is simple; he doesn't do it, a super computer does, and if you are factoring all of those contingencies into your required fuel , I'm quite certain a computer does that too, unless you have a lot of time to take all of the weather data and aircraft performance charts to calculate the ETP's, burns, etc.

So Erwin, now you have me curious too; how do you know how much fuel to upload on long flights? I'm guessing that your long flights are not like his long flights.

I would agree with that Jon, but like any class we consider, there are individual differences. Some 121 guys were accomplished corporate or charter pilots at one time who know the drill.

That was a pretty broad question, hard to tell what he was getting at. From his perspective (long oceanic flights) he has to consider all of the international fuel reserves , 2 or 3 different ETP's, re-release flight plans, alternate altitudes with commensurate differences in fuel burns, and calculate that into a "required fuel". Maybe he assumed you did all that too, but he might have meant how did you do it.

From his operation the answer is simple; he doesn't do it, a super computer does, and if you are factoring all of those contingencies into your required fuel , I'm quite certain a computer does that too, unless you have a lot of time to take all of the weather data and aircraft performance charts to calculate the ETP's, burns, etc.

So Erwin, now you have me curious too; how do you know how much fuel to upload on long flights? I'm guessing that your long flights are not like his long flights.

You call dispatch right?

If there is weather you walk down to the fuel truck "give me an extra 500"