Mark, ok, you have my attention... just curious what the training consisted of? I've been considering doing one of those courses put on by aerobatics instructors covering extreme situations. The only unusual attitude recovery situations I've been were not in twins (except for a tiny bit during my initial multiengine training)... my Baron and TC training programs were done in the plane and the instructors avoided those sorts of maneuvers.
Were you inverted?
Believe I did my initial training in the TC with the same knowledgeable fellow from Arkansas who I understand you may have flown with you initially in your TC and I don't remember covering anything that extreme. I haven't done any sim training.
Thanks

Mark, ok, you have my attention... just curious what the training consisted of? I've been considering doing one of those courses put on by aerobatics instructors covering extreme situations. The only unusual attitude recovery situations I've been were not in twins (except for a tiny bit during my initial multiengine training)... my Baron and TC training programs were done in the plane and the instructors avoided those sorts of maneuvers.
Were you inverted?
Believe I did my initial training in the TC with the same knowledgeable fellow from Arkansas who I understand you may have flown with you initially in your TC and I don't remember covering anything that extreme. I haven't done any sim training.
Thanks

I was referring to the price sold new, the M2 is not much more than a new Mustang.




Used Mustangs are in the 1.7 - 2.2 range. Used M2 is about 3.5.

Not much more?

Mustang is out of production. No new ones available. Last delivery was a year ago.

http://txtav.com/en/newsroom/2017/05/te ... l-delivery

WICHITA, Kan. (May 11, 2017) – Textron Aviation Inc., a Textron Inc. company, today announced the final production Cessna Citation Mustang has rolled off the assembly line and will be delivered in the coming weeks. The ground-breaking Mustang quickly set the standard in its category for pilots stepping up to jet ownership, and enjoyed tremendous success throughout its 12-year production run with more than 470 aircraft delivered to customers around the world.

Mike C.

Cessna single pilot jets:

M2: $5M

CJ3+: $8M

CJ4: $9.5M

The M2 is really a CJ1++.

Mike C.

Used M2 is 3.5, used CJ2 is 2.5. CJ2 is more capable (more range, more payload, goes higher (fl450)) for $1MM less. G3000 looks very cool but not THAT cool.

In addition to the bleed air, legacy Citations have an alcohol spray bar on the pilots's side. This uses isopropyl alcohol when the pilot turns it on. There is a 0.5 gallon tank which lasts 10 minutes. It is described in the manual as a backup to the bleed air heat.

Mike C.

CJ1++++++++++++++++

The shadow is pretty close, but that's it!

Disclaimer is, I only have a dozen or so hours in an early serial # CJ1.

But I've been flying an M2 out of a 3700 foot strip in hot weather at gross straight to 410 and holding 400KTAS for about a year now. Actually must be exactly, since I'm headed to recurrent tomorrow.

If you commit to being able to play the G3000 like a harp (why wouldn't you?), it takes about the same mental bandwidth as a C182. I have a 182, so I know.

If your first assigned or published altitude is 2-3000, remember to snap back the handy, standard equip thrust levers, and everything will be ok!

I think it's the perfect owner-flown family plane. Another disclaimer is that I have had exactly the same thought about my 182, PC-12NG, TBM850, CE-501, CE-525, PA-31, and probably a couple others.

Another disclaimer is I would far rather have the C25B+. The people I fly a B350 for asked me what my vote to replace it was. That was my answer. I'll feel pretty good if they buy one on my vote.

You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. Of course, you folks who actually buy jets instead of 182's already know this.

Yes, ummm at one time there was a bit of a joke going around that a certain area FSDO was the biggest unlit obstacle to aviation this area.

As expected.


The ACM in the Citation II is the exact same model as in my MU2, the R70 by Hamilton Sundstrand.

Mine works quite well generally (did have a sensor go out recently, but now fixed) and I've never experienced this popping sound you speak of. There's nothing in the ACM that can make that noise normally, so something is wrong with yours.

My guess is that the anti ice control system is broken and you are developing ice in the ACM output which breaks off. The anti ice control system can be broken and the pilot not notice for quite a while, and the symptoms are not obvious.

There are not that many who know how to debug and fix ACMs any more, particularly the control system.

The core parts of the ACM, the turbine and heat exchangers, are extremely reliable. Very simple and elegant machine.

Mike C.

Great that you're familiar. It seemed to be a common problem as it was addressed in initial and recurrent. I had no issues in the V. The problem seemed to appear on hot days when one had the AC on full blast and coldest setting on the ground. What was taught, was if that noise was heard, to turn the cold setting a bit warmer. That did the trick. Wonder how the Citation would be different than your plane for the ACM other than going higher, but we usually had that happen climbing in the teens on the way higher.

Those are ideal conditions to form ice in the ACM output. Warm humid air chilled below freezing, ice builds up on the water separator, partially clogs the output path, pressure builds, breaks off ice noisily.

There is a sensor at the separator, a controller, and a heat bypass valve that are supposed to keep the temp at the separator just above freezing (~3C) to prevent this. A broken sensor, broken controller, or stuck actuator will result in an ACM that seems to work fairly normally until you get into these ice forming conditions.


I don't have vapor cycle (aka freon), just ACM. Maybe that makes a difference.

Mike C.

Thanks. I'll mention those things to the fella that owns the II.

Agree 100%. I don't know where the claim that a CJ1+ and M2 are the same plane comes from - CJ1+ to M2 was probably the most significant upgrade in performance since the CJ came out.

OTOH, if I was thinking about an M2, I would probably chose the CJ2 for 1MM less as John points out.

Flying back to KPWA today from KVNY bringing my son home from college there were scattered T storms all over NM. Luckily they topped at FL310 and I was able to just fly over them with a bit of maneuvering. I heard airliners deviating elsewhere at FL360 and worried that I might have to fly quite a bit out of my way to get home. I was thinking I wish I could go to FL410...

Then on the ramp at home I parked between an M2 and a CJ3+. I felt like Goldilocks. Sure, FL410 would have been nice. And getting home an hour earlier would have been nice too. But for a lot less money I did just fine. I wouldn't spend $4.5 million on either plane.

But a nice CJ2 for a bit more capex than the TBM is tempting.