28 Jun 2025, 15:22 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp  Posted: 18 Dec 2017, 17:03 |
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Joined: 11/09/09
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Location: KRYY (Marietta, GA)
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Username Protected wrote: You Citation drivers sure do get grumpy.  http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kaus/ ... -2030Z.mp3Start just after 4:30. Had to listen. Maybe I am missing something but if he cancels IFR, 1200 on the transponder and outside their airspace it seems like he was correct in his assertion that there is no pilot deviation. He can pretty much go where he wants. Again, I am assuming he is outside controlled airspace.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 18 Dec 2017, 19:04 |
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Joined: 08/24/13
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Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
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Username Protected wrote: You Citation drivers sure do get grumpy. http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kaus/ ... -2030Z.mp3Start just after 4:30. Had to listen. Maybe I am missing something but if he cancels IFR, 1200 on the transponder and outside their airspace it seems like he was correct in his assertion that there is no pilot deviation. He can pretty much go where he wants. Again, I am assuming he is outside controlled airspace.
Define uncontrolled airspace.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 18 Dec 2017, 20:54 |
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Joined: 11/08/12
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Location: Live in San Carlos, CA - based Hayward, CA KHWD
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Username Protected wrote: Maybe I am missing something but if he cancels IFR, 1200 on the transponder and outside their airspace it seems like he was correct in his assertion that there is no pilot deviation. He can pretty much go where he wants. Might want to brush up on the language of 91.123(b)...
_________________
-Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Dec 2017, 11:34 |
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Joined: 01/31/10
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Username Protected wrote: Maybe I am missing something but if he cancels IFR, 1200 on the transponder and outside their airspace it seems like he was correct in his assertion that there is no pilot deviation. He can pretty much go where he wants. Might want to brush up on the language of 91.123(b)...
For the next guy...
Ҥ91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.
(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.
(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.”
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Dec 2017, 11:48 |
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Joined: 04/04/14
Posts: 1856
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Location: Southern California
Aircraft: C 210
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Username Protected wrote: Maybe I am missing something but if he cancels IFR, 1200 on the transponder and outside their airspace it seems like he was correct in his assertion that there is no pilot deviation. He can pretty much go where he wants. Might want to brush up on the language of 91.123(b)...
Thanks for posting the link, its been a while.
As written it sure seems to encourage pilots to never call them in the first place (if legal to do so). I cancelled flight following once when a controller and I were not seeing eye to eye and was not accused of a "deviation" or given a number to call. "Squawk VFR, freq change approved".
Is it different since he was cancelling IFR and not just flight following?
Vectors/call outs for traffic is what I actually want from ATC, hard to understand fighting them on that. 
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Dec 2017, 12:07 |
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[quote="Ben Pinkston"]It says that you must obey an ATC instruction, but then it says that you may cancel IFR if not in class A. /quote]
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
Unless he was in Class G airspace, hew as in controlled airspace and received an ATC instruction, VFR or IFR, clearance or not, he can't just choose to ignore it
he was in a citation, descending, and was told there is crossing traffic 10 miles ahead- rather than heeding the safety of ATC's instructions, he cowboy'd up and said he'd just avoid it himself...great attitude
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Dec 2017, 12:48 |
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Joined: 11/01/08
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Username Protected wrote: You Citation drivers sure do get grumpy. http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kaus/ ... -2030Z.mp3Start just after 4:30. I don't get it. The controller wasn't asking for much. Fly the heading for 10 miles or whatever. Not a big deal in a jet. Just do it. Now, he gets to deal with a pilot deviation investigation. Hope that "I'm going to just do what I want" thing was worth it.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Dec 2017, 13:55 |
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Joined: 05/05/09
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Aircraft: C501, R66, A36
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Yeh, I really didn't get this guy trying to be a jerk to ATC. ATC is your friend and 99% of the time when they ask you to do something inconvenient it's for a safety reason. No win for anyone and lots of risk of something expensive. I wouldn't recommend doing what this jerk did but if he was in class G airspace, I do think it is within your right to cancel IFR. A good refresher on class G airspace: http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/ ... -airspace/--------
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