banner
banner

14 May 2025, 23:22 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 196 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 14  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 17:44 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/14/09
Posts: 6068
Post Likes: +3328
Company: tomdrew.lawyer
Location: Des Moines, IA (KDSM)
Aircraft: 1973 Baron E55
I submit this gentleman above is more right than wrong when looking over 5 years of ownership and 600 hours of flying. I think I have read every post on BT and the Twin Cessna website and read every article on twin Cessna Ownership that is out there in Cyber land. Those posts and Articles support what this guy is saying.

Maybe, here is a better way to say it. If a pilot is not willing to play the game in this $$$ range, then I would not recommend buying a Pressurized twin.

However, if a pilot is willing to get his mind around the concept that you can obtain 80% of the performance of a KA C90 for 60-70% of the cost of a KA C90, then enter the game and be happy. I truly believe a pilot can do that. :bud:

_________________
C340A/8KCAB/T182T
F33C/E55/B58
PA 28/32
Currency 12 M: IPC/BFR, CFII Renewal


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 18:12 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 09/04/10
Posts: 3535
Post Likes: +3228
Aircraft: C55, PC-12
I think the 421 is close to being in a class by itself. I'd bet it is the most expensive to operate amongst its close competitors but not by a large margin.

_________________
John Lockhart
Phoenix, AZ
Ridgway, CO


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 19:29 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 07/04/11
Posts: 1709
Post Likes: +243
Company: W. John Gadd, Esq.
Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
Username Protected wrote:
I think the 421 is close to being in a class by itself. I'd bet it is the most expensive to operate amongst its close competitors but not by a large margin.



421, after one hours, your sold.

But a 340 is a great step in the right direction and fantastic cabin and great looks.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 19:35 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 07/04/11
Posts: 1709
Post Likes: +243
Company: W. John Gadd, Esq.
Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
Username Protected wrote:
I haven't owned either but operated a C340 for about a year and nearly pulled the trigger on a C421. I spent a great deal running all the #'s, talking to mechanics and talking to many owners of both. My personal conclusion was that the overall cost of owning a C421 was perhaps 10% more than a C340, making the decision between the two a no-brainer for me. The 414's weren't appealing due to higher acquisition price and engines which I felt were under powered (same engines on C340 on a much bigger / heavier airframe) and the biggest appeal to the C421 (besides the enormous cabin) was the very quiet geared engines.

I focused my efforts on the C421 but after talking to many, many owners I simply couldn't get past the exceptionally hard to predict mx costs. Engines aside, you can spend an enormous amount of $$ on mx on these birds and still have another enormous bill right around the corner.

At the end of the day, my mission (90% single occupant, 10% mult-pax trips and roughly 350 hrs / yr) doesn't match up well with a C421 and I went an entirely different route. Yours seems to match it very well. I would consult with as many owners as you can regarding their very honest experiences & costs operating these birds. Also talk to several shops who specialize in Twin Cessnas - TAS in Defiance, OH is one but there are many others.

I still have a longing for a C421 and would recommend them to anyone who is looking for a very roomy, comfortable cabin with almost endless baggage space. I think you just need to go in eyes wide open and be prepared for some very hefty on-going mx bills.


I would not call a 414A with 335hp underpowered. The wing is glider like and climbs just fine on 335hp and really hauls on 670hp. IIRC it will hang around FL200 on a single engine. IMHO best light twin ever created.


Isn't it the same as the 340 basically?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 20:30 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/06/14
Posts: 3721
Post Likes: +2568
Location: MA
Aircraft: Cessna 340A
Username Protected wrote:
I would not call a 414A with 335hp underpowered. The wing is glider like and climbs just fine on 335hp and really hauls on 670hp. IIRC it will hang around FL200 on a single engine. IMHO best light twin ever created.


Isn't it the same as the 340 basically?


The 414 has a larger aerodynamic footprint (wider cabin) and is heavier. So the 340 can be a bit faster with the same engines.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 20:59 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 476
Post Likes: +692
Username Protected wrote:

Isn't it the same as the 340 basically?


The 414 has a larger aerodynamic footprint (wider cabin) and is heavier. So the 340 can be a bit faster with the same engines.


414A has an entirely different wing than a 340 or the 414 or the 421. It really likes being up high where is might actually be faster than a 340 or about even. Never flown a 340. What's the cruise speed at 65% at FL220? 414A with winglets will do about 215knots.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:05 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/17/11
Posts: 1849
Post Likes: +1293
Location: KFRG
Aircraft: 421C
I am thoroughly torn...i started with the decision to purchase a 340 then started looking at 421s. Now I made the mistake of looking at 414s. :sad:


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:10 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 07/23/13
Posts: 124
Post Likes: +149
Username Protected wrote:
I am thoroughly torn...i started with the decision to purchase a 340 then started looking at 421s. Now I made the mistake of looking at 414s. :sad:


I ended up in a 425 after playing the same game.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:19 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 7346
Post Likes: +5008
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
How much a 421,340 or 414A costs to run depends on the owners tolerance for break downs or AOG situations.

Pilot number one has no tolerance for breakdowns, delays and AOG situations so he spends more for MX.

Pilot number two is OK with unplanned delays, breakdowns and AOG situations so runs the plane till things break.

Pilot number three is somewhat in the middle.

I am like number one so I spend a lot on preventative MX. It's still cheaper than a C90 for 100 hours a year.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:23 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2507
Post Likes: +2048
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
2. Did you note that he doesn't run LOP?

It's been a while since I saw this video, but I remember thinking "this guy has no clue how to run a plane economically!"

We spent almost a year and roughly $8k (GAMI's, many hours swapping injectors, several test flights, etc, etc) to dial in both engines to run smoothly LOP. It reduces fuel flow 10 gph ($40-$50 per hour) and airspeed 10 kts. So the ROI term is 160-200 hrs of LOP flight (disregarding airspeed loss)...or roughly 5% overall cost reduction.
Not a game changer. And the GTSIO engines usually make TBO either way.

To me, the real advantage of LOP in the 421 is payload and range.

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX
Bubbles Up


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:24 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 476
Post Likes: +692
Username Protected wrote:
How much a 421,340 or 414A costs to run depends on the owners tolerance for break downs or AOG situations.

Pilot number one has no tolerance for breakdowns, delays and AOG situations so he spends more for MX.

Pilot number two is OK with unplanned delays, breakdowns and AOG situations so runs the plane till things break.

Pilot number three is somewhat in the middle.

I am like number one so I spend a lot on preventative MX. It's still cheaper than a C90 for 100 hours a year.


Let me guess: you're spending between $60K to $90K annually to run that 100 hours, depending on the year, all in.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:25 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 7346
Post Likes: +5008
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
Jack my engines run great LOP, but I have decided to keep the 10kts.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:26 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/10/12
Posts: 6693
Post Likes: +8181
Company: Minister of Pith
Location: Florida
Aircraft: Piper PA28/140
Username Protected wrote:
Another datapoint:


Seen that video. It's also not representative.

1. Did you note what he pays for hanger & insurance?

2. Did you note that he doesn't run LOP?

It's been a while since I saw this video, but I remember thinking "this guy has no clue how to run a plane economically!"


I think he is factoring high in some case but I also think he's trying to represent reality, round numbers.

You don't think 40 gal/hr is reasonable estimate block to block for short trips?

A hangar big enough for that airplane around here could easily be $1000/mo, probably more as you get up towards NYC metro, if you can even find one. My 43' bifold T is a bit over $400.

Insurance on $400K hull, I don't know, I suppose it could be that high if the named pilots aren't 5000 hr twin drivers, and since he's using it for business prob has the highest liability coverage that he can get.

The one that got me was the 100-120 hr annuals, with no discrepancies. Yow.
_________________
"No comment until the time limit is up."


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:34 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 476
Post Likes: +692
Username Protected wrote:

I think he is factoring high in some case but I also think he's trying to represent reality, round numbers.

You don't think 40 gal/hr is reasonable estimate block to block for short trips?

A hangar big enough for that airplane around here could easily be $1000/mo, probably more as you get up towards NYC metro, if you can even find one. My 43' bifold T is a bit over $400.

Insurance on $400K hull, I don't know, I suppose it could be that high if the named pilots aren't 5000 hr twin drivers, and since he's using it for business prob has the highest liability coverage that he can get.

The one that got me was the 100-120 hr annuals, with no discrepancies. Yow.


80 hours to properly inspect the bird, another 20 to rig the landing gear, you can spend another day per engine each just tweaking everything right: fuel flow, take off MP, etc, so 120 hours is not out of the question, 100 hours is more like it. It's a big bird with a lot of systems. I mean a turbo single is around 40 to 50 hours to do right.

40 hours block to block is a good number. You don't buy a plane like this to go slow. Sure you can do 190 on 26gph, but unless you need the range, why bother, what's another 9gph in the grand scheme of things for 220. That extra 30 knots makes all the difference in the world when heading into the wind at altitude. I'm taking about 414A. Have no experience with 421C.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:37 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2507
Post Likes: +2048
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
Insurance on $400K hull, I don't know, I suppose it could be that high if the named pilots aren't 5000 hr twin drivers, and since he's using it for business prob has the highest liability coverage that he can get.

I haven't had time to watch the video, what's his insurance number?

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX
Bubbles Up


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 196 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 14  Next



Aviation Fabricators (Bottom Banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2025

.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.KingAirMaint85_50.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.holymicro-85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-11-22.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.aerox_85x100.png.
.Elite-85x50.png.
.ocraviation-85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.daytona.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.b-kool-85x50.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.performanceaero-85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.SCA.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.mcfarlane-85x50.png.