14 May 2025, 23:56 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 17:44 |
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Joined: 02/14/09 Posts: 6068 Post Likes: +3328 Company: tomdrew.lawyer Location: Des Moines, IA (KDSM)
Aircraft: 1973 Baron E55
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I submit this gentleman above is more right than wrong when looking over 5 years of ownership and 600 hours of flying. I think I have read every post on BT and the Twin Cessna website and read every article on twin Cessna Ownership that is out there in Cyber land. Those posts and Articles support what this guy is saying. Maybe, here is a better way to say it. If a pilot is not willing to play the game in this $$$ range, then I would not recommend buying a Pressurized twin. However, if a pilot is willing to get his mind around the concept that you can obtain 80% of the performance of a KA C90 for 60-70% of the cost of a KA C90, then enter the game and be happy. I truly believe a pilot can do that. 
_________________ C340A/8KCAB/T182T F33C/E55/B58 PA 28/32 Currency 12 M: IPC/BFR, CFII Renewal
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 19:29 |
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Joined: 07/04/11 Posts: 1709 Post Likes: +243 Company: W. John Gadd, Esq. Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
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Username Protected wrote: I think the 421 is close to being in a class by itself. I'd bet it is the most expensive to operate amongst its close competitors but not by a large margin. 421, after one hours, your sold. But a 340 is a great step in the right direction and fantastic cabin and great looks.
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 19:35 |
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Joined: 07/04/11 Posts: 1709 Post Likes: +243 Company: W. John Gadd, Esq. Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
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Username Protected wrote: I haven't owned either but operated a C340 for about a year and nearly pulled the trigger on a C421. I spent a great deal running all the #'s, talking to mechanics and talking to many owners of both. My personal conclusion was that the overall cost of owning a C421 was perhaps 10% more than a C340, making the decision between the two a no-brainer for me. The 414's weren't appealing due to higher acquisition price and engines which I felt were under powered (same engines on C340 on a much bigger / heavier airframe) and the biggest appeal to the C421 (besides the enormous cabin) was the very quiet geared engines.
I focused my efforts on the C421 but after talking to many, many owners I simply couldn't get past the exceptionally hard to predict mx costs. Engines aside, you can spend an enormous amount of $$ on mx on these birds and still have another enormous bill right around the corner.
At the end of the day, my mission (90% single occupant, 10% mult-pax trips and roughly 350 hrs / yr) doesn't match up well with a C421 and I went an entirely different route. Yours seems to match it very well. I would consult with as many owners as you can regarding their very honest experiences & costs operating these birds. Also talk to several shops who specialize in Twin Cessnas - TAS in Defiance, OH is one but there are many others.
I still have a longing for a C421 and would recommend them to anyone who is looking for a very roomy, comfortable cabin with almost endless baggage space. I think you just need to go in eyes wide open and be prepared for some very hefty on-going mx bills. I would not call a 414A with 335hp underpowered. The wing is glider like and climbs just fine on 335hp and really hauls on 670hp. IIRC it will hang around FL200 on a single engine. IMHO best light twin ever created.
Isn't it the same as the 340 basically?
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 20:30 |
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Joined: 07/06/14 Posts: 3721 Post Likes: +2568 Location: MA
Aircraft: Cessna 340A
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Username Protected wrote: I would not call a 414A with 335hp underpowered. The wing is glider like and climbs just fine on 335hp and really hauls on 670hp. IIRC it will hang around FL200 on a single engine. IMHO best light twin ever created. Isn't it the same as the 340 basically?
The 414 has a larger aerodynamic footprint (wider cabin) and is heavier. So the 340 can be a bit faster with the same engines.
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 20:59 |
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Joined: 10/26/16 Posts: 476 Post Likes: +692
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Username Protected wrote: Isn't it the same as the 340 basically?
The 414 has a larger aerodynamic footprint (wider cabin) and is heavier. So the 340 can be a bit faster with the same engines.
414A has an entirely different wing than a 340 or the 414 or the 421. It really likes being up high where is might actually be faster than a 340 or about even. Never flown a 340. What's the cruise speed at 65% at FL220? 414A with winglets will do about 215knots.
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:10 |
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Joined: 07/23/13 Posts: 124 Post Likes: +149
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Username Protected wrote: I am thoroughly torn...i started with the decision to purchase a 340 then started looking at 421s. Now I made the mistake of looking at 414s.  I ended up in a 425 after playing the same game.
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:23 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2507 Post Likes: +2049 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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Username Protected wrote: 2. Did you note that he doesn't run LOP?
It's been a while since I saw this video, but I remember thinking "this guy has no clue how to run a plane economically!" We spent almost a year and roughly $8k (GAMI's, many hours swapping injectors, several test flights, etc, etc) to dial in both engines to run smoothly LOP. It reduces fuel flow 10 gph ($40-$50 per hour) and airspeed 10 kts. So the ROI term is 160-200 hrs of LOP flight (disregarding airspeed loss)...or roughly 5% overall cost reduction. Not a game changer. And the GTSIO engines usually make TBO either way. To me, the real advantage of LOP in the 421 is payload and range.
_________________ Jack N441M N107XX Bubbles Up
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:24 |
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Joined: 10/26/16 Posts: 476 Post Likes: +692
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Username Protected wrote: How much a 421,340 or 414A costs to run depends on the owners tolerance for break downs or AOG situations.
Pilot number one has no tolerance for breakdowns, delays and AOG situations so he spends more for MX.
Pilot number two is OK with unplanned delays, breakdowns and AOG situations so runs the plane till things break.
Pilot number three is somewhat in the middle.
I am like number one so I spend a lot on preventative MX. It's still cheaper than a C90 for 100 hours a year. Let me guess: you're spending between $60K to $90K annually to run that 100 hours, depending on the year, all in.
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:26 |
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Joined: 02/10/12 Posts: 6693 Post Likes: +8181 Company: Minister of Pith Location: Florida
Aircraft: Piper PA28/140
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Username Protected wrote: Another datapoint:
Seen that video. It's also not representative.
1. Did you note what he pays for hanger & insurance?
2. Did you note that he doesn't run LOP?
It's been a while since I saw this video, but I remember thinking "this guy has no clue how to run a plane economically!"
I think he is factoring high in some case but I also think he's trying to represent reality, round numbers.
You don't think 40 gal/hr is reasonable estimate block to block for short trips?
A hangar big enough for that airplane around here could easily be $1000/mo, probably more as you get up towards NYC metro, if you can even find one. My 43' bifold T is a bit over $400.
Insurance on $400K hull, I don't know, I suppose it could be that high if the named pilots aren't 5000 hr twin drivers, and since he's using it for business prob has the highest liability coverage that he can get.
The one that got me was the 100-120 hr annuals, with no discrepancies. Yow.
_________________ "No comment until the time limit is up."
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:34 |
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Joined: 10/26/16 Posts: 476 Post Likes: +692
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Username Protected wrote: I think he is factoring high in some case but I also think he's trying to represent reality, round numbers.
You don't think 40 gal/hr is reasonable estimate block to block for short trips?
A hangar big enough for that airplane around here could easily be $1000/mo, probably more as you get up towards NYC metro, if you can even find one. My 43' bifold T is a bit over $400.
Insurance on $400K hull, I don't know, I suppose it could be that high if the named pilots aren't 5000 hr twin drivers, and since he's using it for business prob has the highest liability coverage that he can get.
The one that got me was the 100-120 hr annuals, with no discrepancies. Yow.
80 hours to properly inspect the bird, another 20 to rig the landing gear, you can spend another day per engine each just tweaking everything right: fuel flow, take off MP, etc, so 120 hours is not out of the question, 100 hours is more like it. It's a big bird with a lot of systems. I mean a turbo single is around 40 to 50 hours to do right. 40 hours block to block is a good number. You don't buy a plane like this to go slow. Sure you can do 190 on 26gph, but unless you need the range, why bother, what's another 9gph in the grand scheme of things for 220. That extra 30 knots makes all the difference in the world when heading into the wind at altitude. I'm taking about 414A. Have no experience with 421C.
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Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421? Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:37 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2507 Post Likes: +2049 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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Username Protected wrote: Insurance on $400K hull, I don't know, I suppose it could be that high if the named pilots aren't 5000 hr twin drivers, and since he's using it for business prob has the highest liability coverage that he can get. I haven't had time to watch the video, what's his insurance number?
_________________ Jack N441M N107XX Bubbles Up
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