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08 May 2025, 08:40 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 15:56 
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The extra 2m that you invest in the 930 you will get it back when you resell.
You'll get most of it back when you sell. Hopefully Daher won't have released a 950 and a 980 before it's time for you to sell the 930.

What you won't get back is the extra insurance you paid on the higher hull value, nor the interest paid to borrow or the foregone income on the money that you could have otherwise invested. There are real carrying costs of more expensive airplanes.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 16:36 
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Location: Boise, ID
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I'm not sure where you come up with this stuff. Show me a used TBM that sells for $2M more than a used Meridian of comparable years.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 17:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm not sure where you come up with this stuff. Show me a used TBM that sells for $2M more than a used Meridian of comparable years.


2015 or 2016 900/930 vs m500 would be about that much. Even if you get it back on sale (big if), that's a lot of lost investment income... 6% on 2m is 120k /yr. even after taxes that would buy a fair number of hours in a CJ.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 17:22 
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Joined: 07/23/09
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Location: KSJT
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Username Protected wrote:
The extra 2m that you invest in the 930 you will get it back when you resell.
You'll get most of it back when you sell. Hopefully Daher won't have released a 950 and a 980 before it's time for you to sell the 930.

What you won't get back is the extra insurance you paid on the higher hull value, nor the interest paid to borrow or the foregone income on the money that you could have otherwise invested. There are real carrying costs of more expensive airplanes.


I agree with those items, but on the positive side, you'll be covered under warranty (both Engine and Airframe) for five years, less unscheduled maintenance, and less downtime during inspections. For a high utilization operator longer downtimes increases operating cost so it makes buying new a lot easier than a low utilization operator.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 17:46 
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Joined: 01/14/09
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Location: Boise, ID
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm not sure where you come up with this stuff. Show me a used TBM that sells for $2M more than a used Meridian of comparable years.


2015 or 2016 900/930 vs m500 would be about that much. Even if you get it back on sale (big if), that's a lot of lost investment income... 6% on 2m is 120k /yr. even after taxes that would buy a fair number of hours in a CJ.


Those are virtually new planes. Go back a few years and see what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 17:54 
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less unscheduled maintenance, and less downtime during inspections.


At first glance one would assume so. I am convinced it is not so. Note the brand new TBM that had a pressurization problem and killed its pilots.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 19:16 
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Joined: 09/02/09
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Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Username Protected wrote:
The extra 2m that you invest in the 930 you will get it back when you resell.
You'll get most of it back when you sell. Hopefully Daher won't have released a 950 and a 980 before it's time for you to sell the 930.

What you won't get back is the extra insurance you paid on the higher hull value, nor the interest paid to borrow or the foregone income on the money that you could have otherwise invested. There are real carrying costs of more expensive airplanes.


Jim is correct to a point. But all airplanes don't perform the same, and their market depreciation profiles aren't the same. Almost no one looks at every cost item rigorously when analyzing aircraft. When I did I found on a per mile, after tax basis that the differences weren't that much (in a given performance class) and that in some cases (PC 12 for example) the newer, more expensive airplane was cheaper to own all in if you could tie up the necessary capital.

Sure the Meridian is very economical but my wife swore she would never get in another one. MU2's, Conquests, and others are great airplanes if that's what you want. King Airs are my favorite looking TP but just don't make much sense financially unless you're flying as many hours a year as Penman.

The rationalizations from owners justifying their own plane are endless. Buy what you want and can afford and be happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 19:57 
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Joined: 07/23/09
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Username Protected wrote:
less unscheduled maintenance, and less downtime during inspections.


At first glance one would assume so. I am convinced it is not so. Note the brand new TBM that had a pressurization problem and killed its pilots.


I really don't know much about TBMs, especially new ones, but I wouldn't draw conclusions based on one event. I believe that was the first 930 serial number out of production and the first one that cabin pressurization was controlled by the electronic flight system.

For PC12s, I can say, informally, that new birds have less unplanned downtime/less downtime than older ones. More inspections become due the more time that is on the airframe.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 20:17 
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Joined: 10/31/14
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Aircraft: eclipse
I just don't get the TBM

With an Eclipse you can go low and 50 knots faster
Attachment:
IMG_0018.JPG


Or you can go high and be faster and burn less fuel
Attachment:
IMG_0216.JPG


In either case it's safer and less expensive

To each his own :cheers:

And of course you will be upside down :doh:


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 20:30 
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There are two Eclipses based at my home field and looked after by my A&P. I've heard more than enough stories of owners getting reamed out on parts and support from Eclipse to want no parts of those jets, unless my intent was to fly them until the first time I needed a part from Albuquerque and then part it out.

Conversely, I've heard mostly good things from the two TBM owners I've spoken with. Sure, 2 or 4 anecdotes don't make "data", but it seems to me like Eclipse is actively antagonistic to their owners.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 20:43 
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Joined: 01/11/08
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Location: Gaithersburg , MD (KGAI)
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We talk with buyer's and current owner's of each of the mentioned aircraft every week.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 20:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
There are two Eclipses based at my home field and looked after by my A&P. I've heard more than enough stories of owners getting reamed out on parts and support from Eclipse to want no parts of those jets, unless my intent was to fly them until the first time I needed a part from Albuquerque and then part it out.


That instability is what scares me about Eclipse. You are married to whatever turbine aircraft company you buy.

But otherwise, the airplane seems like a great performer.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 20:59 
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Joined: 10/31/14
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Aircraft: eclipse
Username Protected wrote:
There are two Eclipses based at my home field and looked after by my A&P. I've heard more than enough stories of owners getting reamed out on parts and support from Eclipse to want no parts of those jets, unless my intent was to fly them until the first time I needed a part from Albuquerque and then part it out.

Conversely, I've heard mostly good things from the two TBM owners I've spoken with. Sure, 2 or 4 anecdotes don't make "data", but it seems to me like Eclipse is actively antagonistic to their owners.


Jim,
When Alan K took over he recognized that Eclipse was being aggressive in it's dealing with owners. He has addressed this and parts pricing is better and support is excellent currently.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 21:27 
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Joined: 05/05/09
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm not sure where you come up with this stuff. Show me a used TBM that sells for $2M more than a used Meridian of comparable years.


2015 or 2016 900/930 vs m500 would be about that much. Even if you get it back on sale (big if), that's a lot of lost investment income... 6% on 2m is 120k /yr. even after taxes that would buy a fair number of hours in a CJ.


How are you making 6% on your money? Please tell!

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a TBM
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2016, 21:30 
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Location: Cambridge, MA (KLWM)
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Long term S&P 500 CAGR is well north of that, probably even without dividends but certainly with dividends reinvested, 6% nominal return is somewhere well in the rear-view mirror.

http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm


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