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22 Sep 2020, 07:34 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2016, 10:51 
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Location: Kokomo, IN KOKK
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Always admired the P180's performance, but the noise when one flies over makes my teeth hurt.. Can't hear it from the inside, though..

Ended up with a Cheyenne 400 after I showed a P180 to SWMBO and she said it looked too much like a suppository!

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Nathan "Dirt" Davis
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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2016, 10:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ended up with a Cheyenne 400 after I showed a P180 to SWMBO and she said it looked too much like a suppository!


She sounds like a keeper! :D


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2016, 18:16 
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A hell of a suppository with the canard! ouuuch... :eek:

Rgs,

Patrick.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 02:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
It's a remarkable design and one wonders why not more aircraft has incorporated it?
Way back when, I read an aerodynamic analysis of the 3 lifting surface design. I was surprised to find that there are more aerodynamic tradeoffs than I expected, it's only advantageous over a fairly narrow range of parameters. Sorry I can't remember the details, it was a long time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2016, 07:04 
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Joined: 09/17/15
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Company: goes in Brand X-Talk...
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Username Protected wrote:
It's a remarkable design and one wonders why not more aircraft has incorporated it?
Way back when, I read an aerodynamic analysis of the 3 lifting surface design. I was surprised to find that there are more aerodynamic tradeoffs than I expected, it's only advantageous over a fairly narrow range of parameters. Sorry I can't remember the details, it was a long time ago.


That's exactly the key of P.180 : a well-optimized design to find the optimal tradeoff on all the parameters, leading to exceptional efficiencies.

Daniele

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 01:11 
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Pretty paint job on this Spanish Avanti.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 01:45 
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Pretty paint job on this Spanish Avanti.

His tail number indicates he really wanted an EC-LiPse Jet.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 14:09 
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Location: Salzburg, Austria
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now that's what I'd call an exclusive Avanti paint scheme…no windows either….

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-03-09/uae-military-places-order-unmanned-piaggio-hammerheads


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 14:28 
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Company: Bottom Line Experts
Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2013 SR22T G5
Username Protected wrote:
It's a remarkable design and one wonders why not more aircraft has incorporated it?
Way back when, I read an aerodynamic analysis of the 3 lifting surface design. I was surprised to find that there are more aerodynamic tradeoffs than I expected, it's only advantageous over a fairly narrow range of parameters. Sorry I can't remember the details, it was a long time ago.


Two of my Aeronautical Engineering professors at Ohio State were highly involved in the development of the Avanti. It's an exceptional achievement in aerodynamic efficiency. The P180 achieves its performance partly from the 3 lifting surface config but also from its extensive use of laminar flow on the wings, canard and fuselage. It's one of the only commercial aircraft that I'm aware of that utilizes extensive amounts of laminar flow on the fuselage. The props were highly optimized as well.

It's a shame that the development was so singularly focused on performance and efficiency and very little attention was paid to maintainability and total cost of operation.

I was going to write a long explanation of the reasons for 3 lifting surface efficiencies but found a write up in Wikipedia that says it better than I could. The follow is an except from Wiki:

Quote:
The three-surface configuration is claimed to reduce total aerodynamic surface area compared to the conventional and canard configurations,[9][15] thus enabling drag and weight reductions.

Pitch equilibrium
On most aircraft, the wing centre of lift moves forward and backward according to flight conditions. If it does not align with the centre of gravity, a corrective or trim force must be applied to prevent the aircraft pitching and thus to maintain equilibrium.[16]

On a conventional aircraft this pitch trim force is applied by a tailplane. On many modern designs, the wing centre of lift spends much or all of its time aft of the centre of gravity, so the tailplane exerts a downward force.[17] Any such negative lift generated by the tail must be compensated by additional lift from the main wing, thus increasing wing area, drag, and weight requirements.

On a three-surface aircraft, the pitch trim forces can be shared, as needed in flight, between the foreplane and tailplane. Equilibrium can be achieved with lift from the foreplane rather than downforce from the tailplane. Both effects, the reduced downforce and the extra lifting force, reduce the load on the main wing.

The Piaggio P.180 Avanti has flaps on both its forward wing and main wing. Both flaps deploy in concert to maintain pitch neutrality for take-off and landing.[9]

Static stability and the stall
On a canard aircraft, to allow natural static pitch stability in normal flight, the foreplane must provide lift. Also, in order for the aircraft to have safe stall characteristics the foreplane must stall before the main wing, pitching the aircraft down and allowing the aircraft to recover. This means that a safety margin must be used on the main wing area so that its maximum lift coefficient and wing loading are never attained in practice. This in turn means that the main wing must be increased in size.

On a three-surface aircraft, the tailplane acts as a conventional horizontal stabiliser. In the stall condition, even if the main wing is stalled the tailplane can provide a pitch-down moment and allow recovery. The wing may thus be used up to its maximum lift coefficient, an advantage that may translate into a reduction of its area and weight.

A lifting foreplane is positioned ahead of the centre of gravity, so its lift moment acts in the same direction as any movement in pitch. If the aircraft is to be naturally stable, the foreplane’s size, lift slope and moment arm must be chosen so that it does not overpower the stabilizing moment provided by the wing and tailplane. Stability constraints thus limit the foreplane’s volume ratio (a measure of its effectiveness in trim and stability terms), which may in turn limit its ability to share pitch trim forces as described above.



The full write up is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-surface_aircraft

A diagram illustrating the advantages of the 3 lifting surfaces compared to traditional wing/tail and canard/wing layouts is shown below:

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2016, 08:20 
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Aircraft: C177RG, ATOS-VR
http://kron4.com/2016/03/24/san-jose-sm ... -reported/

A bad day for an Avanti.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 02:39 
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New promotional video from Piaggio. Two beautiful brand new Evo's in formation over Genoa. The sharp eyed can tell they have new exhausts to reduce noise, new prop and new winglets. Winglets look small to me, not sure they'll add any performance.

http://youtu.be/GSmZAjApuWc

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 07:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
For the aficionados, here's an immersive walk around and talk about all the features of the Avanti II. Very interesting to hear about some cool features like the ice warner that works like a tuning fork etc. Man, I want one bad… :drool:

http://youtu.be/s17WjwKJ6Uk


Interesting plane with several neat features. Ice detecting tuning fork indeed unique, very Italian.
One of the best walkarounds I've ever seen. Confident, knowledgeable, no hype, well done! Military background I suspect.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 09:55 
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Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
Aircraft: TBM - C185
Nice video Adam.
They do have good performance but im not sure i want the maintenance that theses requires. I know the mecanik that works on 2 in Quebec and they are a special breed.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 10:33 
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Location: Loadin' up the truck and movin' to Beverly. Hills, FL that is
Aircraft: Piper PA28/140
P180 is on my Powerball Wish List, along with a P51, Sikorsky S-76, and this: http://www.controller.com/listings/airc ... ing-747-sp

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 12:27 
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Joined: 10/14/14
Posts: 1324
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Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
Lovely airplane, impressive performance, Citation speed King Air fuel burn.
A PIA to work on, King Air like parts at Falcon or Gulfstream prices.

You may want to ping Tracy Barrus about repair cost of these aircraft.

Back in the mid 90's our company was approached to become a Service Center for Piaggio. The had come to us stating they had a customer ready to take on nine P180's and put them in a Part 135 operation based in SFO. They offered factory training, tooling, and a parts inventory. We were eager and excited. I flew on two demo flights with the factory demo team and the prospect. Very nice ride, about the same noise level as a Citation with an occasional buzz from cabinetry from the props. Road through turbulence very well due to the wing loading.
The prospect had been given demo's to Dallas, Los Angeles and New York. He became silent when it came time to poney up the deposits. He claimed to be related to the Ferrari's in Italy who controlled Piaggio. The Ferrari's said we do not have any relatives in the US. There sales team went on a search for this guy, finally contacted his girl friend who state she too had not seen him and that he had been doing so well right after getting out of the half way house. Needless to say we never became a Piaggio Service Center.

Currently, I would strongly question diving into one of these aircraft. Piaggio has been on shaky ground for years. They had some hope with AVANT AIR before they collapsed, the Italian Government floated them for a while and pulled funding. Recently the Middle Eastern group that bank rolled them proclaimed they wanted out after the crash of the companies Hamerhead prototype. It is a very costly aircraft to build and maintain and never really gained traction, I would be surprised if any one picks up the pieces.
Owning one that you can not support may make these unique aircraft even harder to justify.

Interesting note the first hand full of airplanes were made by Lear and the cockpit shares many Lear 55 components. Lear lost interest and turned it over to Piaggio who held the design rights.


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