Warning - long post. I am a low time pilot (just under 1,000 hours), flying an average of 125 hours until last year. I fly a decent amount of IFR and use the plane mostly for business and some family travel as well. About a year ago, I moved up from a 1975 V35B to a 1981 421C. I had gotten remarried the year prior and total family was now 7. I had concerns about making such a big leap and worried I would feel like much of the plane was “wasted” when I was solo for business trips.

I was wrong. The increased capabilities opened up a new world of missions. The speed, pressurization, useful load, comfort, and quiet cabin led to more than 200 hours of flight time in the first twelve months of ownership. Training for insurance required 15 hours dual and was conducted at my home base. Within the first five hours I felt mostly comfortable in the plane. I may not have had emergency procedures down pat, but I knew I could fly it. The transition was far easier than the one from PA-28 to the V-tail. It was easier to fly than the Seneca I earned my MEL in and had no surprises. It wasn’t as much fun as the Bo, but it was just so darn comfortable. After about six months and 100 hours of flying time, I was hooked and started regretting not jumping straight to turboprop.

To make the jump to a turboprop worth it, I wanted about 300kts, seat 7 comfortably (4 teenagers), five plus years until a hot section or overhaul, and make it about 1,000 miles with a headwind. A Pilatus is my dream plane, but fortunately the acquisition cost made it easy to cross off the list. KA is #2 on the list, but would have needed to be a 200 to hit my wish list items and the price was just too high (although much closer than the Pilatus, which made it tougher to cross off). Blackhawk C90’s were close, but not quite there for trade-off of price and performance. Conquest I simply didn’t seem like a big enough jump to be worth it. Plus, the Pratt’s TBO’s were much shorter than the Garrett’s.

Conquest II was a natural choice because I love the 421 so much, but price tags all seemed to come with seven figures so I crossed it off. The fear of the dreaded SIDs didn’t help. For some reason, the Commander just doesn’t do it for me (sorry Adam), so I never thoroughly investigated it but believe it would be a great plane. I slowly, reluctantly, began investigating the MU-2 Marquise.

What follows is my experience over the last six months. I am still learning a lot about the turboprop world, so if I misspeak I apologize in advance to the more experienced pilots here. It isn’t intentional or careless, I am just starting to climb the steep learning curve and have a long way to go.

MU-2 Marquise
As an outsider, I viewed the impassioned MU-2 posts as borderline cult-ish, and quite honestly a bit of a turnoff. As I searched through the countless pages of posts, I found the objective information to be compelling. The naysayers reminded me of some of the misinformed information I found on the V-tail before I bought it and I loved that plane. It seemed to me that some of the most ardent doubters had never flown an MU-2 and were passing along anecdotal evidence.

I spoke with numerous MU-2 owners, all of whom were incredibly gracious with their time (yes, even that one guy). I flew to Aiken, SC and test flew with Mike Laver (an exceptional gentleman). My wife was in the cabin without a headset to see how it compared to the 421C. During the exhilarating flight, I asked Mike how it handled OEI and he offered to demonstrate but said I better check with the wife first. I turned around and said “we’re shutting one of the engines down” rather than asking if it was ok and gave her an enthusiastic thumbs up. Her eyes got really wide and she sat up and I turned back around before she could respond. “She’s good with it!” He shut down the right engine and it was a non-event. The NTS allowed him the time to calmly walk me through the shutdown procedure and we flew on one engine for a while. When we were done, we turned back to base and initiated a descent of 5,000FPM. It was an incredible plane and the wife and I came away hooked.

Mike walked me through the various inspections and mx because turproprops don’t have annuals and I couldn’t find a resource online to wrap my arms around them. There are a few really big ticket items (x-ray the fuselage being one), but most of the mx involves dropping the plane off twice a year. Oil changes are every few years, whereas I do them every 25-50 hours right now. I believed dispatch reliability would be excellent and Mitsubishi consistently wins best customer service in general aviation.
The safety record loomed as a major concern, but the more I investigated the more I believed the plane was not to blame for the safety record. That doesn’t mean I believe the plane is easy to fly, but I do believe that with proper training and a commitment to flying it properly I could fly it safely. The record since the SFAR was impressive. Ballpark insurance numbers were coming in a slightly higher than my 421C and I don’t mean that on a proportionate basis. Twice the hull value was only about $1k more per annum than the 421. Dual was around 25 hours, but at least 15 of those were in the SFAR so that didn’t seem excessive either.

As for the annual training requirement, I believe any reluctance on my part to buy a plane because of training requirements says more about me as a pilot than it does about the plane. I attended the ground school with Reece Howell in Smyrna, another exceptionally fine man in aviation and felt like I was drinking from a firehose. But I came away with an even deeper appreciation for the plane.

The day after I completed ground school, Pascal’s accident occurred. I didn’t know Pascal, but I had read all his posts as I investigated the Marquise and had come to respect him. I don’t wish to dredge up bad memories for those of you that knew him, but I thought it was important to mention since I was in the process of buying an MU-2 when it occurred. We have a risky hobby that I take seriously. Nothing about the initial information available suggested to me it was caused by an issue uniquely specific to the MU-2, so it did not stop me from moving forward. But I believe Pascal was a better pilot than I am, so I did not take the news lightly, either.

One of the biggest challenges for me as a buyer was finding a lender. My usual lender didn’t underwrite MU-2’s and neither did many others that I reached out to. I finally found two that did, but the book value was substantially below asking price. That meant I had to make up the difference between sales price and book. Just as importantly, it meant a future buyer would need to do the same, perhaps limiting the pool of buyers or applying downward pressure on my sales price.

During this time, I was negotiating with Mike Laver on the plane we had test flown. Over the course of about two weeks, we had whittled our differences down to $5k. I made a final offer and he asked to sleep on it. He emailed me a few days later saying he was going to pass. I was surprised and disappointed. It was the only Marquise on the market I was seriously interested in. I watched the market for a few weeks and nothing new came up. At some point I checked back in on 441’s…

Conquest II
I found one comparably priced to the Marquise I lost out on and requested the mx tracking spreadsheet. As a piston pilot, I didn’t understand how this universe worked when I began this process but every turboprop will have one of these and it tells you what inspections are due and when. When I began looking at turboprops, I didn’t know what a hot section was or what a borescope was for and the list of what I didn’t (and still don’t) know is long. I forwarded it to Yingling and they walked me through what inspections were coming up.

I spoke with numerous 441 BT’ers, all of whom were incredibly generous with their time just like the MU-2 pilots. Not a single one felt the SIDs should stop me from buying a 441. The initial SIDs were enacted in 2008 and were extensive and expensive. The ongoing SIDs were more manageable and even the pricey ones (tail, boots, etc) weren’t deal killers when factored in relative to the more expensive acquisition cost of the alternatives like a KA200.

As I began to look at fuel flows, I realized why RVSM is so important. At FL27 from LA to CLT, the 441 would burn about 435 gallons of the 475 max fuel (I am converting to GPH since this post is really for the piston pilots). That doesn’t include taxi or reserves. At FL35, it burns 350 gallons, leaving 125 gallons of reserves and taxi. RVSM adds more than an hour of flight range on that type of flight. In pistons, fuel flow is largely a function of power, but in a turboprop it seems that it is mostly a function of altitude (thanks Mike C).

What is quirky about RVSM is that it is plane and operator specific, meaning I have to create my own RVSM manual for any plane I buy, which can take a few months. There are RVSM consultants out there to make this a less painful process.

Where I really encountered challenges was with the avionics. If you look at 441’s for sale, they either have a completely upgraded panel or a very old panel, nothing in between. There aren’t many 441’s for sale with 530’s or 430’s. I thought this seemed odd but didn’t give it much thought as I casually perused the listings. My only “gotta-have” is a GTN750, so when I started speaking to shops about adding a GTN750 here is what I learned.

The original Cessna autopilot is not approved for WAAS approaches. It will fly WAAS approaches, but it is not certified to do so. This blew my mind. It can be certified for WAAS approaches, but needs special approval from an ACO and adds about $20k and 4 weeks to the GTN750 install. That’s why there aren’t many (if any) 441’s with 530W/430W’s – it just didn’t help that much unless you were willing to go through the extra hoops. Or if you were willing to fly it WAAS without technically being WAAS-certified (which I am not).

Fine, upgrade the AP, right? Here’s the rub - there is really only one WAAS AP upgrade available for the 441, the S-TEC 2100. Guess what – that AP requires dual G600’s. It’s a cascade of upgrades, one thing requiring another. It’s basically an all or nothing proposition because if you want WAAS capabilities the panel needs upgrading. Either leave the plane as is or upgrade to dual G600’s, STEC-2100, and GTN750.

I flew to Tulsa for a test flight and the plane was incredible. It was a little disconcerting watching the altimeter spin so much faster, but otherwise it felt much like my 421C, albeit with much faster speed. I reached an agreement with the seller and went under contract. The plane was already RVSM, but I planned on updating the panel as part of the closing. The engines were at 5,500 hours on a 7,000 TBO program, with the last hot section three years ago. I figured that put me 7 years out from overhaul. On to the pre-buy…

Pre-buy
Pre-buy on tubroprops is staggering. Several BT’ers convinced me that I needed to do a borescope as well as a Phase 2-3D. The “D” requires removing carpet and seats to check for corrosion and while it adds considerable expense, it helps avoid a huge potential “gotcha” that could be discovered the next time it is done and you already own the plane. The total cost of inspections and pre-buy items is almost as much as the cost of my first plane, a PA-28. That is a little tough to type, but sometimes the best money spent is that spent on avoiding a mistake. Speaking of which…

During the borescope inspection as part of the pre-buy, National Flight called me to discuss some “concerns” about the documentation. The engines looked great, however, there was an issue with the 7,000 TBO program. According to National Flight, this program can only be used by Part 122 or Part 135 operators flying at least 800 hours per year. To the best of my knowledge, the seller was not flying to those standards, so I figured something was amiss.

I checked with Yingling and they agreed. Yingling checked with CD Aviation, who also concurred. CD checked with Honeywell, who also agreed. I was encouraged to check with my local FSDO, which I did. Guess what? They indicated it would be incredibly unlikely that I would get an exception to the manufacturer’s recommendation.

Over the course of two weeks and countless discussions with multiple maintenance facilities and the FAA, it started to feel like the plane I was about to buy had zero time left on the engines, not 1,500 hours. This also led into a discussion about whether overhauls are mandatory or recommended for turboprops. What I found (and continue to find) very frustrating is the lack of consensus on this topic. I wasn’t speaking with a random local mechanic, I was speaking with Honeywell-approved maintenance facilities. Some said overhauls were only “recommended” for Part 91 operations while others insisted it was required. All agreed hot sections were required.

All also agreed that my FSDO would need to sign off on the program and this approval process is not consistent across FSDO’s. If the seller had obtained approval from his FSDO, it meant nothing about the likelihood of me getting the same. And my FSDO indicated that at a minimum I would need a letter from Honeywell called a “No Technical Objection” letter that indicated they were not opposed to me using the 7,000 hour TBO even though I wasn’t Part 135 flying 800 hours per year. Then the FSDO would review everything and decide whether it would grant an exception to the manufacturer’s recommendation.

The ambiguity of the situation led me to conclude that I would need overhaul the engines at closing. I indicated to the seller that unless his mx facility could provide concrete evidence supporting the 7,000 TBO program, I would need a reduction in price in order to move forward. After about a week of working with his mx facility, we did not receive concrete evidence that supported the 7,000 TBO operation.

The seller, to his credit, appreciated my position and agreed to reduce the price to reflect the loss of the last 1,500 hours we both believed the engines had remaining. Unfortunately, I am one of those buyers with a budget so that meant the panel upgrade would have to wait because I was putting that money toward the engine overhauls instead.

The plane proceeded with the pre-buy inspection as well as a Phase 2-3D. This process took about two weeks. One set of items that needed further inspection were the drag links. If they could be overhauled, it would cost $5,800. If they had to be replaced, it would cost $46,000. I paid the $1,500 to have them inspected before we closed and fortunately they could be overhauled, but it was another wake up call to the turboprop world.

Other Thoughts
When I checked with the bank on the book value, I was surprised to discover the 441’s asking prices were consistently as much as 20% below book. There were a few very top of the line 441’s that were close to book, but I got book values on about a dozen 441’s and all were asking well below what the bank saw as the value. This was completely different than the Marquise. It also allowed to finance much of the engine overhaul (or the panel had I gone that route).

I understand there is a difference between a lender’s book value and the market price, but the reality is that most buyers finance a purchase and so that matters. Additionally, it effects the amount of cash required at closing. My cash outlay inclusive of the engine overhauls is similar to what it would have been on a Marquise despite the book value being about $500k higher for the 441 with zero time engines.

Insurance is exactly the same as my 421C. Again, this is not on a proportionate basis. It is literally dollar for dollar. The 441 is about 3x the value of the 421C but insurance is the same. Training is 25 hours of dual for initial.

I recently closed on the 441, but won’t take delivery until September as the GTN750 is installed and approved by an ACO, the engines are overhauled, and I add some other items like auto-ignition, a ground clearance switch, etc.

Conclusion (finally, I know)

Things I think I will miss about the MU-2
- built like a tank
- dependability
- Mits support
- being part of the cult
- high wing loading for great handling in turbulence

Things I think I will won’t miss about the MU-2
- explaining to line guys how to fuel it without damaging it
- carrying around a tow bar because not all FBO’s have one
- hard landings (I am overly reliant on trailing link at this point)
- having to explain to my family why it is safe after they Google it

I don’t believe the 441 to be inherently safer than the Marquise, but I do believe it will be more forgiving. One pilot described it as “docile” and I think that’s perfect word. It may not handle like a Bo, but when I am flying seven souls around or running from a meeting in one city to a meeting in another, docile isn’t a bad thing.

I also recognize that I have a penchant for planes with perceived defects. It helps that I have big performance desires with a limited budget, but I also believe value exists when others don’t want to expend the energy to investigate thoroughly.

It is hard to explain the gratitude I have for BT providing such great resources around such a daunting learning curve. Every single BT’er I reached out to responded with very detailed information, not just a generic answer. My hope is this post may help a fellow piston pilot with their decision about whether to begin investigating the turboprop world.

Good post JP. Enjoy your new capability. I'm envious of the range and RVSM.

Nice PIREP. thank you.

Enjoy the plane.

JP, it's easy to see how you have been successful enough to afford to move up as you have... you do your homework!! Great post!

Great write up

Thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts on the purchase decision. I have purchased an Aerostar about 18 months ago. I had been without a "traveling" airplane for about 7yrs (I have a Helio Courier for backcountry flying). Previously I had a MU-2 Marquise and before that I have a MU-2 "N" model. There are a few things pilots thinking about trading up to a turboprop should think about in addition to what you have said.

Where is the maintenance facility and how arduous is it to get there and back by airline?

Where is the simulator? Every turbine pilot should do simulator training either in addition to or instead of training in the plane.

What is the fleet size and how does that bode for continued parts $$$upport?

How many hours a year are you going to be flying? 200hrs at 300kts is a lot of travel.

What are the calendar limits for inspections? If an inspection is 500hr or 3yrs and you fly 100hrs a yr (a lot of personal travel at 300kts) your maintenance cost will by much higher than for someone who flys 200hrs a yr.

I would have bought a Solitaire except for the preceding. Aerostar Aircraft Corp is 40 miles south of my home and my insurance company has approved a local CFII for training. The ferrying for maitenance, travel time, hotels, training cost etc are probably 15-20.000 cheaper for the Aerostar vs the MU-2 simply because everything can be done locally. That is additional "overhead" BEFORE any maintenance or money spent on actually flying. Natually, if I lived in Tulsa, I would have bought a Solitaire

How is the cabin noise level between the 421/Marquis/441?

JP,

That is one of the best, most informative, posts I have read here in 7 years! Thank you very much. I have a couple of friends who are semi retired that manage and fly a 441 for a local company. The one who still flies is a former FAA pilot, and current DPE, with about 5,000 hours in KA's. He raves about the 441 and likes it better. I've flown in that plane and it is very comfortable for both pilots and passengers.

Like you the antique panels are a turn off.

I assume since you went to Tulsa that the broker was Griffith. How was he to work with?

Congratulations on your new plane!

Cabin noise seems to be slightly quieter in the 421, but so close my wife didn't care.

Jerry Griffith was the broker and he was great to work with. He was very responsive and very thorough. He described the plane accurately and fairly. I will probably never use anyone other than Neal Schwartz to sell a plane, but I would absolutely buy from Jerry again.

+1 to what Tony said. Fantastic post - many thanks for taking the time to write it.

+1 to what Tony said. Fantastic post - many thanks for taking the time to write it.

Congrats on your purchase JP! With fresh engines and the panel upgrades, you will have a great airplane!

What a great write up JP! Thanks for taking the time to provide the detailed feedback you did. I'm curious as to how often you plan to fly solo. You mentioned that it didn't bother you to fly the C421 solo but I wonder if you'll have the the same feeling about the 441. That's a lot of cabin to carry around for one person, at least that's how I think I'd feel about it.

Question regarding the SID: What are you budgeting for the SID inspections over the course of your planned ownership? My impression is that these are $300K events every 10 years but the information I've found thus far is rather limited.

Congratulations. I bet September feels like a LONG time away right now...

Never say Never

Great write up. Thanks for spending the time and effort to help educate.