Engine out climb is the only advantage I can see with the 414A. I was initially attracted to the RAM V water cooled bird, but seeing many being converted back tells me that's a no go.

Interesting that you've had yours 16 years but say to stay away. While I consider them different classes of airplane, what goes wrong on the twin Cessnas that doesn't have a counter on the P Baron?

I guess I did not know a 414 would out limb a 421.

I like my 421 because I have had it so long and can afford it. Most everything has broke in that time frame so now I know what to look for and expect. But how do you teach that? Not saying I now it all, just have gone through a lot of problems and most guys just want to fly and not fix.

Engine out climb is the only advantage I can see with the 414A. I was initially attracted to the RAM V water cooled bird, but seeing many being converted back tells me that's a no go.

Interesting that you've had yours 16 years but say to stay away. While I consider them different classes of airplane, what goes wrong on the twin Cessnas that doesn't have a counter on the P Baron?

Reviving this old thread as I'm now contemplating 414A or 421C plus a few others. Anyone else echo Gerald's costs here? These are surprisingly manageable for me.

Prebuy, prebuy, prebuy!!! This is your only opportunity to have someone else pay for your repairs. I've purchased two 35 year old Cessna's (421C, 441)in the last 3 years, so I have some experience. Your first year will likely be burdened by some catch-up maintenance. Don't focus just on engines. The airframe and accessories can add up to a lot of $(I happen to know). Year 2 should be easier on the wallet, but in my case I lost confidence in the airplane (421C) after an engine out on takeoff.

You must have done it right since you are here to post about it. Did the 421C not perform as advertised ? Or did advertised performance just open you eyes when it was more than numbers in a book ?

It performed as advertised and saved my bacon when the s**t hit the fan. The GTSIO is a fabulous engine, but it is very complex and there are some design shortcomings that have caused a high number of engine malfunctions. I am biased, and there are many 421 drivers that have run several engines to TBO without incident, so don't be discouraged. Commit to training and proficiency and you will be fine. Get complacent and have a 'it won't happen to me' attitude and this airplane can bite you.

That's my advice, go turbine if you can.

I fly mine for 421 prices (maybe less if the DOC is really $600/hr for a 421) and I get to enjoy 300 knots, 2500 FPM climbs, and superior dispatch reliability.

Is a P Baron really less maintenance than a 421?

Mike C.

I don't think it does.

421C at gross (7450 lbs) OEI climb rate is 350 FPM (source, 1976 421C POH).

414A at gross (6750 lbs) OEI climb rate is 270 FPM (source, RAM web page).

It should be noted the 421C is carrying more useful load at gross, so when the two planes are loaded for the same flight (same cabin load, same fuel range), the 421C advantage grows.

Mike C.

If your choice is between a 414 and 421, get the 421. Costs are about the same between the birds, and the 421 is just an all around better airplane (no offense to the 414 crowd).

More useful load, quieter, slightly faster, higher resale value, etc.

Robert

That's my advice, go turbine if you can.

I fly mine for 421 prices (maybe less if the DOC is really $600/hr for a 421) and I get to enjoy 300 knots, 2500 FPM climbs, and superior dispatch reliability.

Is a P Baron really less maintenance than a 421?

Mike C.

Used 331's are available. Catastrophic failures are rare and when they do happen you can usually part the plane out (or sell as is) with less loss than a full overhaul.

An unexpected hot section on a TPE331 is $50-100K. Depends on how much needs to be replaced and what happened at the event.

An unexpected overhaul on a GTSIO-520 is $50-80K. Depends on whether you got case cracks. The exhaust is likely to be $15K on top of that.

The likelihood you need the first is very slim. Note that insurance often has FOD protection.

Outside of unexpected events, the cost to maintain the TPE331 is about the same as the GTSIO-520. The TPE331 is less routinely (oil samples, nozzle cleaning basically, no plugs, mags, etc), but has larger events spaced further apart.


$250-$600K for most of them depending on how you define "decent". Main issue is lack of inventory, good ones go fast and off market.

Mike C.

Depending on which engine you chose, there are plenty of halftime or exchange TPE's around. Especially the -5 engines you find in most Commander 690's and in some MU-2's. The -5's are very abundant today, because of people upgrading to -10's on the Commanders. You can probably buy an exchange -5 for about $30/hrs left, at the lower end. That's $54K for 1800hrs, probably less than most piston engines would cost. So one doesn't have to overhaul from scratch when the time is up.

The earlier -1's can also be found, but are a little less common. The early Commander and MU-2's both share that engine and I think James Crossno here flies an MU-2 with those. I have them in my 680V. These aircraft will have the lowest entry price, so if that's important you should look at Commander 681's and MU-2F's. Good thing about the -1's is that they're pretty fuel efficient. But even later 690's with the -5's can be had for less than some high end pistons.

Sorry Mike, the upper end of your numbers are way off base. Factory reman from Continental is mid $50's and no charge for a cracked case.

Robert