Any 441 operators here? Would you like a copilot?

Looking to observe some 441 flying and see how it compares to my current ride as it may be my next airplane. If not too far from me, I can come and play copilot for a trip or two. I have 1000+ hours in an MU2.

Direct email: mikec (at) ciholas.com

Mike C.

You must really want long range to trade the mitts for the tin can 441:-)

Such a bummer about the SID. I wish Cessna would man up and make the 441 again. More efficient than a pc12 and way better performance.

Range and FL350.

I want to fly in one on a real trip to see if I can tolerate the definite reduction in robustness. On the other hand, empty weights are 600 lbs less than my airplane, so that helps with seats full range.


Compared to a jet, they are not too onerous. The jets basically have SIDs all the time. There are also low utilization programs which mute the effect some.


It would cost too much, ~$5M/each. Still a pretty good value, IMO, even at that price, but a small market.

Textron is going after a SETP, but that's a major development program which will cost a lot to accomplish.

One wonders if you simply put the 441 back into production under its current TC, essentially no development program, but with, say, G1000, would you make more money than the development cost of the SETP spread over each example sold? A corporation like Textron is pathologically unable to trade development and manufacturing costs, two different budgets.

Mike C.

Mike - Cheyenne 400LS? Will blow all of these away, and stay Garrett-engined which you like. Yeah, the -14 is lower TBO etc, but it'll still be cheaper than jet and give jet prices and super range.

400LS is NOT cheaper than a jet.

Engine costs are WAY high for the big block -14 engines, more than a pair of Williams FJ44 in many cases.

If I am going to spend 400LS money, I will get the jet instead.

Mike C.

Hi Mike,

Where are you based?
I have several trips planned in the next months where you could possibly join for some 441 time. Can you send me where you are located?

Textron called me 2 days ago and thanked me for supporting them and flying a Cessna. Next, they asked if I would like to upgrade, they sell "everything from caravan to King Airs". Who would not want to upgrade their airplane, including me! They suggested a KA250. Comparing, full fuel KA250 payload was 200 lbs and provided maximum range of 1500NM. My 441 has over 900 lbs full fuel and 2200 NM range - meaning I can leave behind 2 hours of fuel if the trip length is "only" 1500 NM - so on that trip where the 250 carries 200 lbs the 441 could carry 1600 lbs over 1500 NM. Not much of an "upgrade"!
Then we talked about speeds, and the comparison was still in favor of the "300 knot" 441. Then cost of fuel and engine overhauls. $400k to $500k I hear for the KA250 every 3600 hours versus $160k to $210k every 5000 or 7000 hours. I wondered if the extra fuel burn on the KA250 would by itself be enough to pay for the Garrett 331-10 overhaul cost.... The 441 has only 2 fuel tanks, with 4 identical fuel pumps, 2 in each fuel tank. I hear there are so many different fuel systems in the KA series that few training centers know each one... In case one 441 pump fails, fuel pressure drops, the system switches on the "aux" pump automatically, the pilot does not need to do anything (but turn off the master caution light). Then, I hear Beechcraft parts are even more expensive than Cessna airframe parts. 441 has front baggage long enough for cross country skis and large enough for most baggage, and also rear baggage. Besides being heavier, slower, less useful load, more expensive to run and overhaul, me and the salesperson had to agree - there was no reason for me to "downgrade". Too sad that the 441 is not outperformed by now, 35 years later! If it was, the old ones would be a lot more affordable, bringing in more avaitors!

Max,

Thanks for chiming in. I couldn't agree more, and yes, I'm biased!

too funny, I was waiting on Max and Martti

Mike, you need a Pilati or a Jet

PC-12 great plane if you like new. The 441 is faster and about same NM/gallons, and about same overhaul cost for one PC-12 or two Garretts (maybe less for 2 Garretts?), so a purely personal choice. I have several long trips over open water this summer i I like twins...

PC-12 great plane if you like new. The 441 is faster and about same NM/gallons, and about same overhaul cost for one PC-12 or two Garretts (maybe less for 2 Garretts?), so a purely personal choice. I have several long trips over open water this summer i I like twins...

Max, I know, I know, I made bad decisions.......I shoulda listened to you [/quote]

No, I was not trying to be sarcastic. Some people like Singles more than twins. A TP single is still a lot safer than piston singles, and many people, including me have flown those...and survived . I have had 2 engine failures, one in a single and one in a twin. I would much rather have the next one in a twin. My wife refuses singles, so I really have no option.

Max, I am based at KEVV.


Cool. I can come to you if timing and distance work out. Let me know dates, places, times and let's see what we can work out.


I agree.

If Textron put the 441 back into production, even at $5M a copy, it would embarrass the King Airs. Imagine a G3000/GFC700 equipped 441. Drool.

Mike C.

PC12 is too slow, too expensive to buy, too expensive to run, for one fan. The 441 is two fans for a lower price to buy and operate, and much faster.

Jet is being considered, but it is hard to get the range at reasonable cost and requires complexity for SPW (2nd class med, CP license, extra training, etc). The jet isn't as good as the short hops which I still have a lot of.

Right now, if I am honest with myself, the extra time the 441 takes over a jet on a transcon flight don't add up to the extra time a jet will take to train and maintain. The best a jet can save is about an hour because the turboprop can fly lower if the winds are really strong.

The jet has other desirable qualities, of course.

Just picked up another client in Seattle yesterday no less, so the range is really required. 1650 nm in typical winds, means 2000+ nm really.

Mike C.

A quick survey of 441's on controller makes me think that 441 prices have come down over the last several years.

You can almost get that with a commander for a lot less than 5M. It will have some age though.

The conquest is a good plane and I agree with Erwin from a cursory look, prices seem low. Might not stay that way.