A few friends have been looking for a part 91 jet. 3-4 owners flying mostly 400-500 and 1000-1200NM flights. I would guess ~ 200hrs. Annually. Anyone here fly them and what are the gotchas? They are tall guys (6'5, 6'7" etc.) so I was steering them toward the bigger cabin the excel series provides.

I'm currently flying an XLS 91/135. Perfect airplane for what you're looking at. Last trip was KSDL to KMSO, 830nm on 3400lbs/510g. Took 2:15. We can climb straight to FL450 at MGTOW. Very efficient airplane, climbs fast and high to get on top of the weather. We fly about 400 hours/year. Nice big cabin, and great runway performance as well. We operate in the mountains alot, and seldom have performance limitations. I've also flown that trip with nine pax on board. 1200nm is no problem either. I've flown many 4 hour, 1500nm legs.
No real gotchas on the plane. I'd try to find at least an XLS. I've got a ton of time in the XL as well, and the XLS is more fuel efficient, climbs faster, higher gross, better avionics.

Took an Excel to Augusta last week. Very nice cabin. Quiet, roomy, beverage center, stand up aisle. I believe it's the same fuselage as an X.

The biggest Gotcha I know of is the high overhaul cost of PW500 series engine. Only 3 shops can overhaul these engines worldwide and the particular model on the Excel is quoted around $580k each. Could get into the low $800's though.

Bravo's also run on PW500 series engines. A little less expensive than the Excel engines, but not far off. $475-650k typically for a -530A

JT15D Powered jets generally are lower cost. $300k range vs $500k+. But, there's a few models within that family to watch for in the JT15D group have one piece blades.

When you buy a plane, you buy the engines and the airframe just comes along with it. Your wallet knows this to be true.

Take a look at this engine card: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5n7w5qlrd96az ... 5.pdf?dl=0

It will help you pick an engine first and then find the aircraft that are installed on it. Great reference for TBO/inspection periods. Exceptions always exist though.

Currently on an XLS+ - Part 91. We average 350- 400 a year with 4 full time pilots. Will PM you some of the areas to look for.

Regards,
Nigel

I fly all 3 variations XL/XLS/XLS+. Nice cabin, APU works well, no real problems with the plane except it is slow. Can't beat it if you need something with a larger cabin and good short runway performance. Look for an XLS, that's the best one for the money unless you can find a good deal on a plus.

Clay,
could you elaborate on 'it's slow'?. I've heard another similar comment. What do you compare it to? a Citation X , well of course it is. A hangar neighbor of mine flies a Citation Sovereign and they hired a new pilot. He also said the Sovereign was 'slow'. What is 'Average speed ' for these jets?

Marti,

The XLS tops out at .75 and LRC you might have to pull back to .68/.67 with 9 pax
To make 1500 nm. It compliments our ops between the larger longer range birds that cruise @.85/.88 but with a correspondingly higher ops cost of 1.3 times the XLS.

It's a great short field airplane and we routinely use 3000-4500 strips. It's well used for hoping around the islands with multi leg sectors and commuting back to the States.

Nigel

Thanks for all the input and advice, much appreciated!

Marti,

I may be slightly biased as a former factory pilot, but there are many reasons why the Excel, XLS, XLS+ has been a leader in it's segment since it's introduction. It's not as sexy as some but it does a number of things really well when compared to others in addition to having a nice cabin with a flushable/externally serviced lav and big baggage compartment. Most takeoff/landing requirements at the typical U.S. airport will be under 4500', and cruise in the 410-425 ktas range depending on weight/altitude burning roughly 1200-1300 lbs/hour at FL410. After flying all three I would echo what's already been said here; buy the newest you can afford of the 3. The Pro Line 21 avionics and the full fadec in XLS+ make it the most appealing. If you look at early Excels, definitely get one that has an APU. Many that didn't come with it have had it added, and it makes life so much better when traveling during the extremes of the seasons to be able to heat and cool the cabin.

In over 1,000+ hours flying all 3 I can only think of one time that I was grounded, and it was due to an air cycle machine temp/pressure sensor. Wasn't complaining though as we were in Athens, Greece, so I got a day off to do some site seeing.

Interestingly, it took longer to do the paper work than replace the sensor. The beauty of these planes though is that the systems are simple and reliable, and almost any shop around the world can work on them.

Bryan

Bryan/Clay -

Is the only major difference in the XLS and the 'Plus' the PL21 avionics suite?

There is word on the street that my employer might be looking to transition in the upcoming years and the XLS/+ has been mentioned as a contender. Having just upgraded all of the KAs to PL21 I figured they would stick with the avionics package.

Also Bryan - how do you think the 'Plus' would do operating at low altitudes for an extended period of time in the areas of ride comfort, cooling, fuel burn. visibility out of the cockpit between speeds of 150-200 kts?

[/quote]
Bryan/Clay -

Is the only major difference in the XLS and the 'Plus' the PL21 avionics suite?[/quote]

The cockpit in the plus is totally different than the previous models, there's more to it than just changing from the honeywell to the PL21. Go look at them or google for pics and you'll see what I mean. The plus has real FADEC instead of the DEEC on the older models and a slight increase in thrust. I can't tell much difference in performance between the XLS and the plus. If you look at them from the outside you'll notice that the plus has a pointy nose that the older ones don't have. There aren't any other significant differences between them.

Brian,

Agree with everything Clay said, big difference in the cockpit of a Plus vs the XLS. The layout was cleaned up and modernized. When possible many of the toggle switches became backlit push button switches which are much easier to identify at night. Also, the Honeywell Primus avionics in the XLS are getting pretty dated (think 90's technology), and the autopilot of the Honeywell can't compare in smoothness to the PL 21 autopilot. If I remember correctly the engines on the Plus got a minor change in thrust with the addition of the FADEC and slightly better fuel specifics. There might have been an N1 fan blade/chord design change also, but I don't remember. As for operating at low altitude in the 150-200 regime, it's typical straight wing Citation. Pull the power back, hang out some approach flaps and it's happy and very stable at speeds below 175 kias. I don't recall low altitude fuel burns, but it will seam a bit thirsty compared to the burns at cruise altitude.

Bryan

Bryan and Clay - Thanks for both of the informative responses.


We just stepped up from EFIS-10 and a Trimble to the PL21 so you can imagine I appreciate any step-up in avionics and we are loving the PL21 capabilities right now.


Funny you mention the "smoothness" of the PL21 autopilot. I made mention of the autopilot not always flying the best for some of the requirements for our particular work (one poster seemed to think that we had a poor autopilot step-up), but 'smoothness' is actually the problem.....the dampening is very good for a nice ride in back, there are times that we wish we could turn the 'smooth ride' button off


I'm sure whatever replacement is chosen it will probably have FADEC (our L60s do and it is considered a plus), so this is good to know.


That is good news too and very much what I would have expected out of it. I was sitting next to an NetJets XLS pilot one time in the FBO waiting for some weather to pass by and we got into a discussion about takeoff/landing performance under P135/91K requirements. He has his iPad available so we threw in some scenarios and I was very impressed with the numbers produced in relation to the KA numbers.


Again - thanks for the information. I think should the plan come to fruition in the future it will be an addition to the mission.

Does anyone have an expense spread sheet or similar to share?