BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:02

Username Protected wrote:

The citation 500 the "original"'was certificated under FAR part 23.

Uh, no.

"Cessna Aircraft Co. earned FAR Part 25 transport category type certification for its original Citation 500 in September 1971"

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:06

Username Protected wrote:

I actually had good hopes for this thread. But, Chip's agenda is playing out again.

I think Chip should give you all his "secrets" for Free! :scratch:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:26

Username Protected wrote:

I actually had good hopes for this thread. But, Chip's agenda is playing out again.

Mike C. had an opportunity to play nice, I was trying to help the guy out.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:44

Username Protected wrote:

Serial numbers 1 - 260 were Citation V's and SN 261 - 538 are Ultra's (EFIS Panel and other changes). In 2000 Cessna replaced the V / Ultra with the Encore, it's still a 560... but a different airplane all together.

I'm interested in the difference between the V/Ultra and the Encore. Why is the Encore an entirely different airplane? Pros/Cons and cost difference?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:48

Username Protected wrote:

The citation 500 the "original"'was certificated under FAR part 23.

Ahhhhh Part 23 vs Part 25... probably needs to be a new post. The Citation II is Part 25 for the same reason the first Citation 500's were... the FAA saw jet engines and said Part 25... even though the gross was less than 12,500 but did not make Cessna build the aircraft to transport category standards. We'll start splitting hairs here if we aren't careful, but my point was that the Citation V has more in common with it's larger Transport Category airplane cousins than the 550 does. To make it worse, they allow the 550 to be certified under Part 23 as well... so at that point is it a Transport Category aircraft or not!

You see the same differences if you compare a King Air 300 to a King Air 350... but the 300 needed permission to be a Part 23 aircraft with a gw over 12.5k

Basically the FAA has made a huge mess out of the certification process for light jets.

It continues to haunt us... ergo the avionics discussion.

It gets better... The Citation V according to Mike is just a stretched 550... i.e the 550 and 560 are the same... anyone take a really good look at a Citation XLS lately? Cessna has been able to morph that entire line into a different level of airplane all the while saying it's just a 560...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:50

Username Protected wrote:

Yes, Mike C. there were a couple of innacuracies in your (now deleted) post...

I have not deleted any posts in this thread.

Please correct any inaccuracies you notice.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:53

Username Protected wrote:

The citation 500 the "original"'was certificated under FAR part 23.

From the A22CE type certificate data sheet:

Model 500 Certification Basis

Part 25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations effective February 1, 1965, as amended by Amendments 25-1 through 25-17;

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... Rev_67.pdf

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:57

Username Protected wrote:

It's called a "discussion". That is what we do on forums. There are no "secrets" in aviation. People trying to sell you something will tell you that, but it is just knowledge and experience. That knowledge and experience is available in a multitude of sources.

If that were actually true all my buddies who make big bucks brokering airplanes would be out of business!

I think what Aubie is saying is that I have access to information and access to sources for airplanes that you do not have access to.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 19:58

Thomas.

Its all on the internet, I guess you have to know where to look. Everthing I read on BeechTalk and the internet is true! :liar:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 20:04

Username Protected wrote:

There are no "secrets" in aviation.

False. We didn't know about the EZ Creeper until Tammy told us about it.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 20:07

Username Protected wrote:

Serial numbers 1 - 260 were Citation V's and SN 261 - 538 are Ultra's (EFIS Panel and other changes). In 2000 Cessna replaced the V / Ultra with the Encore, it's still a 560... but a different airplane all together.

I'm interested in the difference between the V/Ultra and the Encore. Why is the Encore an entirely different airplane? Pros/Cons and cost difference?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 20:15

Username Protected wrote:

Dang! Do you guys do anything else!

Nope! The good Lord put me on this earth to keep an eye on you. :hammer:

Quote:

The Garmin 750 and 650 are so the fix today isn't as bad as it use to be.

Are you saying the 750/650 are TSO'd? This is a point I have been pondering. It seems easier and less expensive to get WAAS and ADS-B in an airplane that isn't married to an avionics suite such as Proline.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 20:15

Username Protected wrote:

The Citation V according to Mike is just a stretched 550...

"Cessna publicly announced it was developing a stretched development of the Citation II at the annual NBAA convention in New Orleans in 1987."

On the Citation V Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_V

The real change from the II to the V was using the S550 new wing (first developed for the III) which allowed both slower Vref speeds and higher cruise speeds, a win at both ends of the envelope. A higher output engine is the other major change.

The two wings can be distinguished by the older wing having a straight leading edge and single panel flaps, and the new S550/V wing having a bent leading edge and having two panel flaps on each wing.

Thus, for the small cabin legacy Citations:

Old wing: 500, 501, 550, 551
New wing: S550, 560

Quote:

anyone take a really good look at a Citation XLS lately?

The Excel is a different airplane, taking the larger cabin of the X, shortening it, and mating it to the wing/planform of the 560. Although it is on the same A22CE type certificate as the 500, 550, S550, 560, it has its own type rating due to being different enough from the rest of the line.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 20:26

Username Protected wrote:

Serial numbers 1 - 260 were Citation V's and SN 261 - 538 are Ultra's (EFIS Panel and other changes). In 2000 Cessna replaced the V / Ultra with the Encore, it's still a 560... but a different airplane all together.

I'm interested in the difference between the V/Ultra and the Encore. Why is the Encore an entirely different airplane? Pros/Cons and cost difference?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Mar 2016, 20:36

Username Protected wrote:

The Citation V according to Mike is just a stretched 550...

"Cessna publicly announced it was developing a stretched development of the Citation II at the annual NBAA convention in New Orleans in 1987."

On the Citation V Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_V

The real change from the II to the V was using the S550 new wing (first developed for the III) which allowed both slower Vref speeds and higher cruise speeds, a win at both ends of the envelope. A higher output engine is the other major change.

The two wings can be distinguished by the older wing having a straight leading edge and single panel flaps, and the new S550/V wing having a bent leading edge and having two panel flaps on each wing.

Thus, for the small cabin legacy Citations:

Old wing: 500, 501, 550, 551
New wing: S550, 560

Quote:

anyone take a really good look at a Citation XLS lately?

The Excel is a different airplane, taking the larger cabin of the X, shortening it, and mating it to the wing/planform of the 560. Although it is on the same A22CE type certificate as the 500, 550, S550, 560, it has its own type rating due to being different enough from the rest of the line.

Mike C.

Purchasing a Citation V