Many of you know Mike Ciholas, he has decided I'm public enemy #1 on Beechtalk... and that is fine... I've chosen to make a living in aviation, I have thick skin!

Mike has been critical of me on several points... mainly my love for King Airs and my general dislike of the Mitsubishi MU2, but in a recent post he asked for some buying tips on a future purchase he is considering. As luck would have it he has his sights on a Citation V, and airplane and market I happen to know pretty well...

I told him I would list the main points to consider when purchasing a Citation V... I choose to put it here in Brand X Talk because it's my understanding that Brand X Talk is where discussions about Non-Beechcraft airplanes like Citations... and MU2's belong.

If anyone has any advice to add please do so! My hope is that my input will help Mike and that one day when he is a Citation driver we can be friends

I also hope information that gets shared here will help others with future purchases of any Citation products.

no points listed?

Where's the list Chip?

Any time we have a discussion about what to avoid when buying an airplane I will absolutely hurt someone's feelings. The reality is that you cannot avoid a certain attribute without avoiding certain airplanes, saying someone shouldn't buy a certain aircraft because of _____________ is the equivalent of telling a new mom her baby is not only ugly but that the hospital overcharged her for the delivery.

So, please understand these are my opinions and that there is always and "objection" meaning there is always a weakness to any airplane, if no other objection exist... price will be the objection!

We are talking specifically about Citation V's so keep that in mind, here's a little background.

Cessna started delivering Citation V's in April of 1989 it was marketed as a "stretched Citation II... but it is a totally different airplane, built to Part 25 standards and the first Citation that wasn't considered slow.

Serial numbers 1 - 260 were Citation V's and SN 261 - 538 are Ultra's (EFIS Panel and other changes). In 2000 Cessna replaced the V / Ultra with the Encore, it's still a 560... but a different airplane all together.

Now the advice...

I'm going to put these items in no specific order related to importance or significance.

TIP: It isn't what you pay for it, it's the difference in what you paid and what you can sell it for!

TIP: Make sure the airplane has Freon air... most do... but not all.

TIP: Be very cautious of airplanes that have Garmin 530's and 430's installed... this is still a subject of debate but those boxes were never certified for Part 25 aircraft. Is the fact that a FSDO signed off on the install good enough... I don't know... ask the pople who had to remove them from Lear 35A's, Citation V's and Westwinds. (all Part 135 operators to my knowledge) The Garmin 750 and 650 are so the fix today isn't as bad as it use to be.

TIP: Do a separate Avionics Survey / Test Flight to make sure everything is working and installed correctly / legally.

Example On Josh's King Air 300 we had an Avionics Survey done by Steven's Aviation and had Tom Clements test fly the airplane, he discovered that the vacuum pump had been removed during the G1000 install. The owner had the opportunity to pay to have one installed and Tom saved Josh more than his services cost!

TIP: Avoid airplanes that are over 4000 or 9000 hours total time depending on your budget. Most people shy away from a 10k hour Citation... you want to buy it far enough away from those milestones to sell it with less than 5k or 10k when you are ready.

TIP: Engine times... I could spend a lot of time here... probably better to have someone who is interested in buying call me so we can discuss... at least consider how many hours you will have on the engines when you go to sell the airplane. It may have only 2800 SOH today... but if you fly it 500 hours and try to sell it it will be considered "run-out"

Example We recently assisted a client with the acquisition of a Citation V with less than 400 SOH on the engines. They can fly 1000 hours and still have better than mid time motors when they sell... plus no HSI at their expense.

TIP: Avoid the 1989 models. Unless price is a dominating factor I would not purchase a "1989" Citation V... the first 37 airplanes are '89 models and I think the combo of a low serial number and a 1980's DOM is worth avoiding. No offense to those 37 owners, I was involved extensively with serial number 3 and number 10... but the reality is 1989 sounds 10 years older than 1990 and that perception is only going to get worse. Cessna should have held their cards a bit longer and made them all 1990 models.

TIP: Borsecope the engines before you do anything else
I feel like I am beating a dead horse... but for some reason this continues to be a problem. No scope at all... or the scope done at Pre-purchase when the buyer is on the hook for moving the airplane and the flat rate for the inspection.

This should get us started (and I'm out of time) let's try to stay focused on Citation V's

Dang! Do you guys do anything else!

I didn't want the post to be so long no one would read it!

By the way, I don't have a prepared "list" to share... I have knowledge acquired over many years of buying and selling airplanes... so I actually have to type all this stuff out one slow keystroke at a time... using the seven fingers that still work and a couple of fat thumbs!

Thanks Chip. I have no interest in a 560 but this ought to be helpful to someone.

Nope! The good Lord put me on this earth to keep an eye on you.



Are you saying the 750/650 are TSO'd? This is a point I have been pondering. It seems easier and less expensive to get WAAS and ADS-B in an airplane that isn't married to an avionics suite such as Proline.

Yes, as far as I know you can install the Garmin 750 in a Part 25 aircraft as it is on the list from a Certification stand point... having said that the avionics shops are starting to see issues with field approvals... so if there isn't an STC for the install and it has to be done on a 337, that may be a separate issue.

Your statement implies the II was not part 25 which is not true. 500, 550, and S550 were part 25 prior to the V. In fact, all legacy Citations started as part 25 first, then the 501 and 551 were made part 23 to be single pilot.

The 560 shares most of its DNA with the S550, in particular the new wing. The 560 upgraded the engines to the JT15D-5 with higher thrust, TKS replaced by the typical Citation deice setup (heated panels inboard, boots outboard, boots on tail), and a slight stretch of the fuselage. Higher gross and FL450 ceiling round out the meaningful changes.


My understanding is that even with vapor cycle AC, the ACM is retained.

Is the vapor cycle AC actually good enough to cool the cabin on the ground with a GPU? I've conflicting reports if that works well or not, particularly for cooling the cockpit. If it doesn't, then the vapor cycle AC isn't delivering the real value it can, which is ground cooling.

I hear the the condenser fan motors don't last long. Something about brush arcing in thin air.

Are there any after market vapor cycle options? Are they any good?


There are example STCs of the 430/530 being installed in part 25 aircraft, even in legacy Citations (ST01072WI, ST01113WI for example). If a FSDO signed off on the install, I would have no problem accepting that as a legal install and using it.


What is special about the 5K and 10K hour milestones? Is that artificial number phobia on buyers part or is there something substantive to the issue?


"Hey, in 25 years, people will emotionally devalue planes built in 1989, so let's not introduce this new airplane to the market."

I am sure that conversation did NOT take place.

Mike C.

And in a single post you make it painfully obvious that you need to hire someone to help you purchase a Citation V... and NOT me.

You might call Robin Eisler at Jet Quest, David Foster at O'gara Jets, or Todd Spangler at Elliott Jets (I'm not sure who handles acquisitions for them, but Todd can get you with the right person)

Hope this helps, I tried but there is clearly not anything I can do for you.

Now I know why you guys quote people in your post, it's so they can't delete what they said

I'm learning.

Yes, Mike C. there were a couple of innacuracies in your (now deleted) post that revealed that you do not know as much about Citations as you think.

I actually had good hopes for this thread. But, Chip's agenda is playing out again.

The citation 500 the "original"'was certificated under FAR part 23.

I think Chip should give you all his "secrets" for Free!

Now I know why you guys quote people in your post, it's so they can't delete what they said

I'm learning.

Yes, Mike C. there were a couple of innacuracies in your (now deleted) post that revealed that you do not know as much about Citations as you think.