BeechTalk - BT - Larger plane for a growing family- Advice please

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 18:22

I read the criteria again-normal trip is 200 nm, with an occasion 700 nm.

I stand by the Caravan recommendation. The speed won't any difference on the 200 nm trip, and the comfort will make all of the difference on the 700 nm trip.

I do Fort Worth to Aspen 2-3 times a year in the Caravan. 600 nm if you go direct (usually longer because I fly the valleys). Nobody complains about the 4 hours trip because there is so much room in back. It makes a 421 or King Air 90 feel tight.

The most important thing is the simplicity of operation compared to a pressurized twin. When you have four kids in back-simple, robust, and reliable is awfully nice.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 18:30

Username Protected wrote:

I read the criteria again-normal trip is 200 nm, with an occasion 700 nm.

I stand by the Caravan recommendation. The speed won't any difference on the 200 nm trip, and the comfort will make all of the difference on the 700 nm trip.

I do Fort Worth to Aspen 2-3 times a year in the Caravan. 600 nm if you go direct (usually longer because I fly the valleys). Nobody complains about the 4 hours trip because there is so much room in back. It makes a 421 or King Air 90 feel tight.

The most important thing is the simplicity of operation compared to a pressurized twin. When you have four kids in back-simple, robust, and reliable is awfully nice.

$500K budget

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 18:53

Username Protected wrote:

I read the criteria again-normal trip is 200 nm, with an occasion 700 nm.

I stand by the Caravan recommendation. The speed won't any difference on the 200 nm trip, and the comfort will make all of the difference on the 700 nm trip.

I do Fort Worth to Aspen 2-3 times a year in the Caravan. 600 nm if you go direct (usually longer because I fly the valleys). Nobody complains about the 4 hours trip because there is so much room in back. It makes a 421 or King Air 90 feel tight.

The most important thing is the simplicity of operation compared to a pressurized twin. When you have four kids in back-simple, robust, and reliable is awfully nice.

$500K budget

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 19:35

Username Protected wrote:

421C if you want to stay piston, KA90 if you want to go turbine.

Just as a reality check, budget $100k/year for a plane in this category. May be less depending on hours flown, but between hangar, insurance, training, fuel, and maintenance (this being the big variable) you'll be between $70-$120k a year for 100 hours/year.

Robert

This is the what my Merlin IIIC is costing me for 150-200 hours a year.
I went into it from a C182 and a fresh multi.

The best move I ever made was to skip the piston twin, as Steve B said he wished he would have done.

Even though you are looking at 700 nm as your longest flight currently, often times the mission will change to what the plane can do.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 20:06

If you want a piston plane, get a 414 or 421. My preference would be the 421. Its a great 205-215 ktas plane, very comfortable and easy to fly. It is 10x more comfortable than a Baron, especially for 6 people. I loved my 414 and 421. If you want a TP(which I would not be afraid of), a long body MU-2 is an incredible plane that goes 90kts faster and the total operating cost is the same if not less than the 421. The long body will give your family a lot of room and a potty. The short body MU2 will handle 6 people but it will be tight. I've always loved the Merlin III cabin, but have heard that the MX is much more than an MU2.

One last thing, once you go pressurized you will never go back.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 20:13

What is the annual OpX budget? For how many miles?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 20:23

Keep the 36. Charter something amusing for the 700nm mission. Buy a rare and exotic sportscar or two with the savings.

Yes, the multi-$K cost of the charter will grate, but you will only pay it when you need to fly. Buying a turbine to feed, it will be biting your wallet on a schedule, and if you haven't flown it, that will be much more annoying. Just setup an account where you "adios" 10 grand a month, and draw from it when you want to make the big trip. I think over time, that piggybank will have accumulated a chunk of change.

...unless you wanted to care and feed for a turbine. That skews everything of course.

I'm picturing the 700nm trip not being well-tolerated by a family in a "compromise" aircraft. I'm also picturing that you'll miss the simplicity of the A36 after awhile -- particularly if the mission doesn't grow any further.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 20:41

Username Protected wrote:

Keep the 36. Charter something amusing for the 700nm mission. Buy a rare and exotic sportscar or two with the savings. :D Yes, the multi-$K cost of the charter will grate, but you will only pay it when you need to fly. Buying a turbine to feed, it will be biting your wallet on a schedule, and if you haven't flown it, that will be much more annoying. Just setup an account where you "adios" 10 grand a month, and draw from it when you want to make the big trip. I think over time, that piggybank will have accumulated a chunk of change.

...unless you wanted to care and feed for a turbine. That skews everything of course. :D

I'm picturing the 700nm trip not being well-tolerated by a family in a "compromise" aircraft. I'm also picturing that you'll miss the simplicity of the A36 after awhile -- particularly if the mission doesn't grow any further.

Very good advice.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 20:45

Username Protected wrote:

I have been mulling this exact scenario over for myself for the better part of 18 months. 4 kids same basic ages as yours and I currently am cramped in the Baron.

Here is what I have found:

MU2
The good-
Low capital cost
Cheapest turbine to maintain / no major AD's or recurring inspections (gear/spar) 100,200, 600 inspections.
Great support
Awesome performance
The bad-
Short Body - small cabin for Twin Turbine (7 max)
Insurance is higher
Recurring mandatory training
Loud
Reputation (undeserved)

Turbo Commander
The Good-
Fast
Roomy
Easy to fly
Big wing
Quiet Cabin
Reasonable Acquisition costs
The bad-
Many AD's and SB's related to corrosion
Spar AD
Gear inspection
Heavy maintenance costs due to required inspections

421
The Good-
Awesome Cabin
Easy to fly
Cheap to buy and insure
Roomy
The bad-
Slow (200-210kts)
Piston :hide:

Will require TOH

King Air anything
Economics are another step up from what i have found from any of these others
There are $7M King Airs that look a lot like $700k King Airs and the airports and mechanics don't differentiate when they write up your bill
King Air money is too close to Jet money without the performance

For your mission, the 421 seems ideal. The 700nm trips will be a whip, but the 200nm wont be any different than any other plane. For me, I decided on the MU2 a while back and just haven't been able to put the right one together yet. My decision was based on the info above but the "I want to burn JetA" factor was the decider for me.
Also, you cant quantify crazy.
:crazy:

I'm in the same camp, but also seriously looking at a Cheyenne 2 w/ -28's. Low acquisition cost, 7 plus potty, great climb, good speed (not quite mu-2 K or M but w/in 5-10 kts) good range, carry most everything and a less demanding platform to train/ retrain. Just spoke w/ SimCom today Cheyenne initial -$8800 Mu-2 initial $15000
Twin turbine reliability is sweet but there is that 75 gph thing to look out for.

Tough to save money and still go fast and high :dancing:

Your A36 is a good bird. :rock:

(don't ask me why I want to upgrade from mine)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 21:09

Get a 58 Baron.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 22:30

Username Protected wrote:

Just setup an account where you "adios" 10 grand a month, and draw from it when you want to make the big trip. I think over time, that piggybank will have accumulated a chunk of change.

Spot on, 10k if you're lucky. Then again, that would be much less rewarding.

I've owned a twin for 6 months and it's been the most airplane fun I've had in a long time.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 22:34

Username Protected wrote:

Just setup an account where you "adios" 10 grand a month, and draw from it when you want to make the big trip. I think over time, that piggybank will have accumulated a chunk of change.

Spot on, 10k if you're lucky. Then again, that would be much less rewarding.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 22:48

I'm light on Charter option knowledge, also being in the "I wanna fly it myself dammit" camp

-- are there not aircraft that typically arrive with only a single charter pilot -- one whom, when plied with some benjamins or other discreet motivators, would allow OP to hand-fly right seat while said pilot supervises and waits to intervene -- or maybe even supplies some instruction, on condition that the 135 outfit not be told about it?

Emasculating perhaps, but scratches both itches I think -- pilot gets to fly "big iron", wife gets to skip divorce proceedings over a turbine-powered mistress and her stack of expenses, kids don't chirp out "are we there yet?" because they took a T-Bone and made it a 5 hour commemorative air force "flight to remember"? Everyone is refreshed because they chartered something pressurized and fancy, enhancing the trip and making it something fun?

:shrug:

Highly personal decisions on this path.

If nothing else, if OP has access to a rich variety of charter aircraft, he can at least "test the water" with the fam on a trip or two, and help narrow down an acceptable range of turbine mistresses that he might ultimately want to pursue. I'd think 50K "wasted" on charters is cheaper than buying a plane nobody will fly with him and eats jet money units of cash every week that it sits idle.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 22:53

I went down the same road when I sold my B36TC. We wanted something with a realistic useful load and after getting my multi rating and shopping for twins, I ended up with a 340. It is the plane of choice for single engine guys wanting to step into the pressurized twin arena. Its easy to fly and a great transition airplane.
If you want to learn more about twin cessnas, then visit JTATwins.com. Jerry Temple has a wealth of info on this site and you will find the answers to most of your questions.
You can figure on about $50,000/ year to own a 340 or 414, and a little more to own a 421. I dont personally believe you can own any turbine for less than $100k/ year based on my research.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2015, 23:41

Username Protected wrote:

$500K budget

http://m.controller.com/ListingDetail/I ... tegoryId=8