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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 21:05 
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Great work Tony!
Do you have a version of the spreadsheet that includes formulas? Each copy I download is basic number formatting only... :D

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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 21:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Great work Tony!
Do you have a version of the spreadsheet that includes formulas? Each copy I download is basic number formatting only... :D


Unfortunately no. I am downloading it from the software and the formulas aren't included.


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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 21:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
Great work Tony!
Do you have a version of the spreadsheet that includes formulas? Each copy I download is basic number formatting only... :D


Unfortunately no. I am downloading it from the software and the formulas aren't included.

Figured. I'll play with it Monday. (#turkey) Good work.
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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 09:59 
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Payment, depreciation, and insurance would also be dramatically lower for Meridian of the same vintage as the TBM B and C2 models.


Greg-
Insurance is going to be driven by hull value and not going to appreciably differ between the Meridian and TBM unless the asset value is substantially different. They both are pressurized single-engine 6 place turbines. They both share roughly the same underwriting rate tables (again outside of the hull values). Obviously pilot time in type affects the rates as well but the aforementioned assumes the transitioning pilot has no time in either type.

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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 10:16 
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For comparison purposes would be best to put as many line items the same such as hours flown, hangar cost, etc... ? MX and fuel burn would be the big variables.

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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 11:15 
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First I picked a few airplanes using the following criteria: turbine powered, 250 KTAS (or so) or better cruise speed, 800 NM or better range, Pressurized, well supported. There are a lot of other planes I could have picked but these have been of interest to me for awhile.

Take a look and see what you think. If there is a plane I've overlooked, or I've made an egregious error I can easily update the data.


Tony,
FWIW All the turboprop's long range cruise speeds are less than 250KTAS if that's important to you.


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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 12:19 
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I think your PC12 acquisition pricing is low. I have never seen a /45 for under $2MM and have never seen a /47 under $3MM.


I thought that as well Jason and think you are probably right. However, I took the figures from JetAviva's Market Report for the Fall 2015 here:

http://www.jetaviva.com/market-reports/ ... all-15.php

I assumed that they are tracking the market (they certainly claim to be). I realize most assumptions are faulty…still, the interesting thing to me about the PC 12 market report is that it supports what you have said a number of times: Pilatus' are not depreciating.

If I increase the purchase price of the two PC 12 versions by $300,000 it increases annual total cost by $20,000 mol. So not a big deal in the whole scheme of things.


Most of the legacy birds that have been sold in the past 12 months are close to TBO and have legacy avionics. Once you get those two items 'handled' you bump your fly price to about 2.4 - 2.8 for a legacy.

NG is the best bang for the buck (oxymoron), so to speak!
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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 12:38 
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Not really, at least for the TBM's. Their long range cruise numbers are 35 to 42 GPH and right around 250 KTAS (exceeding in some conditions, not in others (temps and altitudes)). Any of them will easily exceed 250 KTAS for an 800 NM trip. Not jet speeds, but fits some missions nicely.

Username Protected wrote:
First I picked a few airplanes using the following criteria: turbine powered, 250 KTAS (or so) or better cruise speed, 800 NM or better range, Pressurized, well supported. There are a lot of other planes I could have picked but these have been of interest to me for awhile...


Tony,
FWIW All the turboprop's long range cruise speeds are less than 250KTAS if that's important to you.


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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 13:45 
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How did long range cruise come into this? Most of the tprops listed can do the 800 nm trip at normal cruise speeds.


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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 13:54 
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A couple of comments have made the point that age of the plane, its equipment, etc. impact acquisition price and of course that is correct. Also, how the planes are operated affects cost as does mission length and a host of other variables. BUT this analysis assumes averages. I was interested in "ball park" cost figures so that these could be ranked and compared. If one was looking at these planes as the options one could then take the most attractive, from a cost point of view, and then further analyze desirability of speed, number of seats, potty, jet vs. turbo prop, landing distance and a host of other variables which are all more or less important. This can go on forever of course! :D

To me the most interesting thing in this exercise was that almost all of the airplanes are within 10% of each other in cost (bearing in mind the assumptions of the exercise).


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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 13:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
To me the most interesting thing in this exercise was that almost all of the airplanes are within 10% of each other in cost (bearing in mind the assumptions of the exercise).


Which tells you how wildly inaccurate it is! :D In other words, I don't see how this list can aid in making an aircraft purchase decision.


Last edited on 29 Nov 2015, 14:07, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 13:56 
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Username Protected wrote:

To me the most interesting thing in this exercise was that almost all of the airplanes are within 10% of each other in cost (bearing in mind the assumptions of the exercise).


I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 14:31 
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To me the most interesting thing in this exercise was that almost all of the airplanes are within 10% of each other in cost (bearing in mind the assumptions of the exercise).


Which tells you how wildly inaccurate it is! :D In other words, I don't see how this list can aid in making an aircraft purchase decision.


Erwin,

I don't think I agree with you completely although I do accept that a blunt instrument is not the best tool for precision. Still, as I've done these exercises and played with the variables to attempt greater accuracy (like adjusting cost to get to the same avionics level for example) I still find that costs within a certain type of aircraft don't vary as much as one would expect. And when you put older, legacy airplanes into the mix, they cost more even though they are cheaper (because maintenance & fuel are so much higher typically).

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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 14:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

To me the most interesting thing in this exercise was that almost all of the airplanes are within 10% of each other in cost (bearing in mind the assumptions of the exercise).


I agree.


How did you get a 10% difference? I see a cost per mile ranging from $4.50 to $7.50.

Including the Lower cost entry level TP like MU-2 or turbine commander would have been interesting.

Not the jet prop commanders or solitaire/marquise but The 690 commander or any of the mu-2s not certified with -10s.

Those can be had for a 1/3 of your average purchase cost.

Around 450k will get the mission done.

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 Post subject: Re: A Comparison of the Cost of Flying Various Airplanes
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2015, 14:40 
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[
How did you get a 10% difference? I see a cost per mile ranging from $4.50 to $7.50.

Including the Lower cost entry level TP like MU-2 or turbine commander would have been interesting.

Not the jet prop commanders or solitaire/marquise but The 690 commander or any of the mu-2s not certified with -10s.

Those can be had for a 1/3 of your average purchase cost.

Around 450k will get the mission done.


I looked at the Annual Budget figure. I didn't even use a calculator just eyeballed it. It certainly looks to me like all the planes in the analysis, flying roughly 50,000 miles a year cost a similar amount of money. Not enough in my opinion to pick one over the other particularly. For that we will need a scalpel!

Yes, you can buy any given airframe for a wide range of price. That wasn't the point of the exercise. My intention was to try to look at cost in general terms, by category of expense and in general terms using someone else's data that I wasn't manipulating (perhaps they were I don't know!). I only included the MU's because someone else asked me too. I could include the lower cost versions except that aircraftcostcalculator doesn't have them in their database.


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