Another thread got me thinking about how our military flies single-engine fighters on oceanic crossings. Obviously, they are refueled from tankers, but what's the contingency for power loss and recovering the airman post-ejection? Do we fly something like ETOPS-profiles within rescue range of ships, something else? Are the rules different for multi-engine tactical fighters (which can still suffer an airframe problem)?

Can only respond based on my experience, but there were no ETOPS or better stated available emergency airports for the tactical jets within the Navy & Marine Corps, in my case A4M's. The routes were chosen based on the "Pathfinder" aircraft, (Navy DC9's) and Marine tankers capabilities. The availability of Wake, Midway and Johnson were evaluated by the TransPac Commander (was referred to with great respect as the Circus Commander).

For us we were provided (allegedly, since we never saw nor needed them) "Duck Butt" aircraft that would drop survival gear. I do remember one crossing that was delayed due to unavailability of the rescue aircraft.

Again that was back in the late 70's and early 80's.

My experience is limited to the mid-80's timeframe, ferrying F-15s over the Pacific. The most likely failure scenario was having a jet that wouldn't accept fuel or where the refueling probe broke. That would require a divert to an alternate field with whatever fuel you had onboard at the time of failure. We would plan the refuelings to frequently top-off so that we normally had plenty of gas onboard at any given time. Also, we made sure we were full of fuel at the critical points, that is when we were the furthest point from alternate fields (e.g. Guam, Wake, Midway).

For more catastrophic contingencies, we had a C130 (Duckbutt) flying around in allegedly "close" proximity that would be able to drop off a larger life raft with supplies to us. For the single-engine guys (F-16s), multiple C130s would actually be lined up along the course so that their response time would be a lot quicker.

For some odd reason, pilots' air-air refueling ability improved dramatically after one of these trips

Doug

Did anybody ever end up in the drink?

Scott,

I've known a few that bailed out over the ocean when doing Basic Fighter Maneuvers or Aerial Combat and whatnot, but never heard of losing one during an over-water ferry.

Doug

Refueling out over the deep blue focuses your attention remarkably. I can also state from experience that Martin-Baker, for all their superb capabilities, did not design their seat for long range ferry.

+1 on multiple refuelings that focused the mind, seats that got harder with each passing hour and Duck Butts. In the Air Force there was an organization whose name I forget that planned all the fighter ocean crossings. We got a detailed flight plan that ran for pages listing all the refuelings and the fuel required to reach the alternates along the route. Since we were flying F-15s, the divert options included both two- and single-engine profiles. But we didn't actually need the flight plan. There was a command ship, sometimes a KC-135, sometimes a C-135 command and control ship, that flew with us and kept tabs on weather, fuel states, winds, you name it. If you had an emergency, a pilot on the command ship would read you everything you needed to know about getting to the alternate. If you jumped out over the North Atlantic, even in the summer, there better be a Duck Butt close by or you were a popsicle.

The main plan these days if someone punches is to divert all the other fighters and then the tanker becomes the on scene commander. They (apparently) have a big 20 man life raft and some other stuff they will drop out to you. I'm not sure how much (none I'd bet) practice they have at actually dropping it close enough for you to be able to get to it, but that's what they say.

There was a guy in an F-16 that punched off the coast of Japan a few years ago that was on a ferry flight to the US. That sucks even more because you have all kinds of crap in the cockpit that you don't normally. Food, drinks, something to read, etc. IIRC he was in the water about 2 hours and got picked up by a commercial fishing vessel.

'I flew for the "Bon Marche," a department store chain now owned by Macy's and reported to a VP, Colonel Bill Hicks, who flew in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

In WWII he was based in Italy and flew a rescue version of the B-17. His job was to fly over the Mediterranean in search of downed pilots. What they did was to fly over the swimming pilot and drop a life raft upwind of them.

The life raft had rockets attached to long ropes that would launch to either side of the raft. The raft would then drift back and the downed pilot would grab a rope and haul himself in.

Bill had a charmingly gruff personality, kind of a combination of General Patton and Douglas MacArthur. People would come into his office and actually "shake" as they reported to him, but he was cordial to me........usually!

Did anybody ever end up in the drink?

Song about an Atlantic crossing in an F-16, by "Dos Gringos"..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNdR53fyLck

Caution, strong language for some.. :-)

There's a member of Plus One Flying Club here in SD who tells a story about a flight of Marine F-4s he and his USAF tanker crew were shepherding across the Atlantic when one of the birds developed a problem with his fuel dump. They had to drag him to Greenland pumping fuel in one end and watching it leak out the other but they got him to the beach safe and dry.

The Marine CO from Cherry Point wrote up a commendation for the crew but the tanker squadron CO refused to endorse it, effectively stating they were just doing their job. Either way I bet the tanker crew didn't pay for drinks that night.

Nor did they for the infamous F-22 dateline problem. Without the tankers to guide them home, the F-22s would have wandered around the Pacific until they splashed. Even if they had someone dead reckoned to near Hawaii, the primary radars might have not been able to pick them up due to their stealth design.

Mike C.

There's a pretty amazing audio recording on youtube (with some images edited in) of a guy's father who was an F-4 pilot bailing out 80 miles off the coast of England (talk about cold). The cause was an engine fire. It's 33 minutes, and worth listening to. Once ejected, the other F-4 circles around, keeping an eye on the guys in the water, all while running low on fuel. Here's the description from youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7G1rvmwfIk
This is a transcript of cockpit recordings during a flight when my dad ejected out of an F-4D about 80 miles off the coast of England in 1975. Both my dad and his navigator were rescued by the British equivalent of the Coast Guard.

Scott

I recall reading a first hand report where one did, over the Pacific in either the late 60s or early 70s. Recall it was either an F-8 Crusader or an A-7, both single engine single seat. Story was he was in water for a few hours, picked up by a ship vectored in by on scene commander. I will try and find a link, recall it reported an engine flame out/control issue halfway to Hawaii from USA.

RAS[/quote]

It was a Marine F-8 that caught on fire and exploded while on the tanker. It's an interesting story, but I don't trust my memory (at least that's what Don L says) so I'll try and find my copy of the report. I flew in the same squadron with the pilot a few years later.