banner
banner

23 Jun 2025, 11:33 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Garmin International (Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 268 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 18  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 13:39 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 14385
Post Likes: +9515
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
My plane costs 25-35k a year and gives me back at least that much economic value and way more than that in convenience and fun value. I'm a pilot, I need an airplane... all the fixed expenses are sunk costs to be taken as a given since I must own an airplane. I don't really care what anyone else thinks it's worth.

What I do know is to get any increase in utility and performance the only thing that would be an upgrade in my mind would be a 421... another piston twin. From there maybe a KingAir or a SETP. All of the alternatives are a significant increase in cost and for my mission, a marginal increase in utility. So I'll do like Jerry says and fly the value out of it, smiling all the way. I'd buy a T-Bone just for the fun and romance of it but my wife says two planes and a crazy simulator are enough. :)

_________________
http://calipilot.com
atp/cfii


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 13:42 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/29/10
Posts: 2761
Post Likes: +2605
Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
I was thinking about this a bit on a long trip this week - I traveled from Dallas to Amelia Island, FL, to Boston (by way of Orcacoke!), to upstate NY, and back to Dallas. About 22 hours of flying time.

The technology and sophistication we have today for GA travel flying is amazing. The Bonanza I was flying has a Garmin 430, a Collins HSI, and an STEC autopilot. Pretty standard stuff in most travel airplanes today, and I complimented it with an iPad running ForeFlight and a Stratus.

Certainly not a $100k glass panel.

I had great weather information and filing a flight plan was as simple as a few clicks on an iPad.

I came to a very simple conclusion: It's never been easier to travel by light aircraft than it is today. The physics haven't changed of course, but the ease of filing in "the system" and getting weather information is incredible.

Odd dichotomy that it's relatively simple to fly IFR and travel in a GA airplane today, but pilot numbers are dropping...

By the way, this was all performed in a rented Bonanza and the entire trip cost less than $4k. Obviously, that doesn't count the years and hours of flying it's taken me to get comfortable flying long distance trips like this, but I think the direct cost of $4k for that trip is pretty reasonable.

Note that it would have cost me a lot more in the 421, but she's down for maintenance at the moment.

Robert


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 13:50 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6652
Post Likes: +5959
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Aerostar Superstar 2
Username Protected wrote:
The future of GA is people who are sick of flying commercial. They do NOT have to be pilots.


I don't know if its the future or not but.

The majority of people I talk to about my flying are way more interested in how I can outrun the airlines from my house to the east coast and at not much difference in cost (if I just figure the cost of fuel). Than about flying for the fun of it going nowhere.


The interest in flying is about utility for most. I myself happen to be in that camp - I rarely go fly around the pattern, I normally use it for travel or for a purpose. Granted, many times the purpose itself is basically to fly and only secondary to get fed (i.e. the $200 hamburger) . A good way to get people enticed is by showing how much time you can save in certain scenarios. The perfect example for me living in LA, is a trip to Las Vegas - something they're all familiar with. Door to door, I'll beat any airline by at least 2 hrs. And if I consider the fuel cost alone (and ignore maintenance reserves and insurance etc), it's comparable to the airlines. When you sell it like that people become interested.

Problem I find is that I don't sell it as much as I should. And the reason I don't is because there's this stigma attached to owning planes. You're immediately the obnoxious rich kid with daddy's money. Doesn't matter that I grew up very modestly and didn't get anything for free - in their eyes you just are. And they take gleeful joy in telling you so should you ever say anything related to money. "What a nice car, wish I could afford that.." I might say, "well, why don't you sell your plane and maybe you could!", the comeback is. And in a way they're right.

I just prefer not to get into those types of conversations. So I end up almost never mentioning I own a plane or I'm a pilot because of that. And because of that, I don't promote aviation as much as I should. I wish there was a way to do so, without getting painted with that brush, but I haven't found a way.
_________________
Without love, where would you be now?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 13:52 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/09/10
Posts: 3634
Post Likes: +860
Location: KPAN
Aircraft: PA12
I'm right there with ya Adam :bud:

_________________
520 M35, 7ECA, CL65, CE550, E170/190, B737
5/19 737
5/18 E170/190
8/17 CL65
3/17 CE500


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 14:37 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26338
Post Likes: +13081
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:

I don't know if its the future or not but.

The majority of people I talk to about my flying are way more interested in how I can outrun the airlines from my house to the east coast and at not much difference in cost (if I just figure the cost of fuel). Than about flying for the fun of it going nowhere.

That's me and that's my experience too.

I couldn't care less about watching some guy in a Pitts do loopy loo's and crazy 8's. I wanna go somewhere.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 14:43 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/06/12
Posts: 2429
Post Likes: +2532
Company: FlightRepublic
Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: SR20
Adam, that's a great point you make. We need to change the perception of GA (which I believe is best done through product placement). If we don't promote GA, then we're the ones who will be responsible for killing it. And I say this as one who is not doing enough to promote GA myself (although I'm working on it)!

:duck:

_________________
Antoni Deighton


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 14:56 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/06/12
Posts: 2429
Post Likes: +2532
Company: FlightRepublic
Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: SR20
Username Protected wrote:

I don't know if its the future or not but.

The majority of people I talk to about my flying are way more interested in how I can outrun the airlines from my house to the east coast and at not much difference in cost (if I just figure the cost of fuel). Than about flying for the fun of it going nowhere.

That's me and that's my experience too.

I couldn't care less about watching some guy in a Pitts do loopy loo's and crazy 8's. I wanna go somewhere.


Jason, I agree with you. How many pre-solo students know how many GA airports are out there? And how close they are to somewhere they may want to go? The gut reaction is to drive if it's 500 miles or less, or login to Orbitz if its more.

We need to reach those pre-solo students and encourage them to think about traveling to those destinations while they're still learning to fly. Let's face it, it's hard to change a habit if all you're used to is driving or flying commercial. And it's easy to find reasons not to do it when challenged. Using GA for travel (even if its recreational travel) dramatically changes the value proposition in time, frustration, and enjoyment.
_________________
Antoni Deighton


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 14:59 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/18/10
Posts: 456
Post Likes: +114
Location: Chicago
Aircraft: C441, C310N
34 year old 421 owner here. The criticism of youth in general is just silly. I'm sure old timers were saying the same thing 40 years ago and I'm sure they'll be saying the same 40 years from now.

There is no lack of interest in aviation from my peers. The issue is 100% cost. When I tell non-pilots I fly airplanes the interest apparent. Many are flight simmers who dream of one day being able to afford to fly.

I have a good friend who has more flight sim hours than I have flight hours and flies with me every chance he gets. He graduated from a top college and has a good job, probably is 70th percentile for income for our age. He is underwater on his mortgage from a condo he bought in 2007, and is still paying off student loans. Flying won't be in the cards for a long time.

I don't understand fully a lot of the economic factors at play, but from what I read older, richer people have done a lot better than younger poorer people in the last 15 years (http://www.census.gov/people/wealth/fil ... 202011.pdf). It isn't surprising then that a very expensive hobby would suffer during those changes. I'm certain if my age group experienced a large growth in net worth we'd see the rate of new private certificates increase.

Also given the population bump of the boomers, it isn't surprising to see the number of active pilots decrease as that group loses their medical or passes away.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 15:09 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/06/12
Posts: 2429
Post Likes: +2532
Company: FlightRepublic
Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: SR20
Username Protected wrote:
34 year old 421 owner here. The criticism of youth in general is just silly. I'm sure old timers were saying the same thing 40 years ago and I'm sure they'll be saying the same 40 years from now.

There is no lack of interest in aviation from my peers. The issue is 100% cost. When I tell non-pilots I fly airplanes the interest apparent. Many are flight simmers who dream of one day being able to afford to fly.

I have a good friend who has more flight sim hours than I have flight hours and flies with me every chance he gets. He graduated from a top college and has a good job, probably is 70th percentile for income for our age. He is underwater on his mortgage from a condo he bought in 2007, and is still paying off student loans. Flying won't be in the cards for a long time.

I don't understand fully a lot of the economic factors at play, but from what I read older, richer people have done a lot better than younger poorer people in the last 15 years (http://www.census.gov/people/wealth/fil ... 202011.pdf). It isn't surprising then that a very expensive hobby would suffer during those changes. I'm certain if my age group experienced a large growth in net worth we'd see the rate of new private certificates increase.

Also given the population bump of the boomers, it isn't surprising to see the number of active pilots decrease as that group loses their medical or passes away.


Nice analysis, Spencer!

I personally think GA can be turned around for the reasons you state. But we mustn't let aviation drop out of the public perception either. I'm not currently aware of any t.v. show, movie, or game that features general aviation in an incidental way, let alone a meaningful one. The closest thing is perhaps the soapy Nashville series, where characters call out "get the jet" when they need to rush to the next plot point. I'd like to see that become "load the Bo" ... :D

_________________
Antoni Deighton


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 15:22 
Offline




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/12/07
Posts: 10873
Post Likes: +2245
Company: MBG Properties
Location: Knoxville, TN (KDKX)
Aircraft: 1972 Bonanza V35B
Username Protected wrote:

I don't know if its the future or not but.

The majority of people I talk to about my flying are way more interested in how I can outrun the airlines from my house to the east coast and at not much difference in cost (if I just figure the cost of fuel). Than about flying for the fun of it going nowhere.

That's me and that's my experience too.

I couldn't care less about watching some guy in a Pitts do loopy loo's and crazy 8's. I wanna go somewhere.

Jason,

I'm one of the "old geezers" that learned to fly in the '60s, but the only reason I own an airplane is to "go somewhere". I too have little interest in air show aerobatics, or Saturday morning pattern work. Nearly thirteen years ago I bought a MB SL500 to "go somewhere", in style, while having fun. I then suffered through Key West being four days of driving, round trip! :pullhair: That was not much fun after a while, even with the wind blowing my hair while driving the convertible along I-75. I got to thinking "You know, I'm a pilot. If I owned a fast plane I could even do Key West as a day trip (and I did, once)."

So, I bought my first Bonanza and began to really "go somewhere". I've been coast to coast, and to all four corners of the U.S. since that purchase. I've flown all over, enjoying the utility of my airplanes. My last long trip, to Utah, three people and a dog, (and a pistol, pocket knives, three bottles of scotch, a couple of bottles of wine, and everything else we wanted to carry), was less expensive than if we'd traveled by airline, and a whole lot more fun.

Consequently, because of getting back into airplane ownership, I've put 16K miles on that car. Most of that was just Sunday afternoon drives, with the top down, on pretty days.

General aviation is such a convenient way to travel. Since twins are so cheap maybe I should buy one. :D
_________________
Max Grogan

Come fly with me.

My photos: https://photos.google.com/albums


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 15:22 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26338
Post Likes: +13081
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:
I'm not currently aware of any t.v. show, movie, or game that features general aviation in an incidental way,

Turn on a rap video.

Check out Instagram and FB.

Everyone wants their own airplane. It sells itself. It's good to want things. Makes you work harder.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 15:27 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/03/10
Posts: 1561
Post Likes: +1809
Company: D&M Leasing Houston
Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: CitationV/C180
Cost is for sure a factor, but let's face it, the technical aspect of owning and maintaining an airplane is beyond what most people are comfortable with. Most people I talk to think it would be really cool to own and operate their own plane if they could afford it. Their eyes quickly glaze over after hearing just a few things on the list of what's involved.

They want push/start/Go/arrive. And maybe one day we will have that level of automation and the cost will be reasonable enough for other than 1%'s to afford, but until then, the guys like me (41) who enjoy going out to the airport to work on our planes and fly our families to cool places or just fly to fly and are technically savvy enough to keep them in flying at a reasonable cost, are a dying breed.

GA means different things to different people and its not dead but its changing and the sun is setting on the way it was.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 15:30 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/29/10
Posts: 2761
Post Likes: +2605
Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
Username Protected wrote:
Cost is for sure a factor, but let's face it, the technical aspect of owning and maintaining an airplane is beyond what most people are comfortable with.


Plenty of operations out there to solve that problem. Straight renting, flying clubs, or GA fractional programs like PlaneSmart.

PlaneSmart is a brilliant operation - Not cheap, but it's sure a lot easier to 'own' through them than it is to maintain an airplane. They take care of maintenance, db updates, insurance, etc, etc, etc.

Robert


Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 15:30 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26338
Post Likes: +13081
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:
Cost is for sure a factor, but let's face it, the technical aspect of owning and maintaining an airplane is beyond what most people are comfortable with. Most people I talk to think it would be really cool to own and operate their own plane if they could afford it. Their eyes quickly glaze over after hearing just a few things on the list of what's involved.

They want push/start/Go/arrive. And maybe one day we will have that level of automation and the cost will be reasonable enough for other than 1%'s to afford, but until then, the guys like me (41) who enjoy going out to the airport to work on our planes and fly our families to cool places or just fly to fly and are technically savvy enough to keep them in flying at a reasonable cost, are a dying breed.

GA means different things to different people and its not dead but its changing and the sun is setting on the way it was.

I'm glad it's for a select group. I'm glad you've gotta want it bad to have it. The airport would be way too crowded otherwise. :D

A lot of you are looking a gift horse in the mouth. You made the cut. Enjoy it!


Last edited on 14 Oct 2014, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Twin Prices Crashing
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2014, 15:30 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/06/12
Posts: 2429
Post Likes: +2532
Company: FlightRepublic
Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: SR20
Username Protected wrote:
I'm not currently aware of any t.v. show, movie, or game that features general aviation in an incidental way,

Turn on a rap video.

Check out Instagram and FB.

Everyone wants their own airplane. It sells itself. It's good to want things. Makes you work harder.


Jason,

I must confess I'm rap challenged, so it's not something I turn on regularly. That said, I think we need to demonstrate that airplane ownership is not just for the 0.001%, but that a used Bonanza or Cirrus could be attainable for a middle-class family that is willing to sacrifice for it. That's a bit different than watching some bikini-clad girls dancing in front of a Gulfstream or Global Express.

But you're point is well taken, and I appreciate that I needed to clarify!
_________________
Antoni Deighton


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 268 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 18  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2025

.Wingman 85x50.png.
.rnp.85x50.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.mcfarlane-85x50.png.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.aerox_85x100.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.b-kool-85x50.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.performanceaero-85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.holymicro-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-11-22.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.KingAirMaint85_50.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.ocraviation-85x50.png.
.concorde.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.Elite-85x50.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.