Adam, with an aircraft that like the one you are looking at you have to be prepared to be its last owner. This aircraft is about gaining an experience for a certain price, so it is better not to dwell on what happens when the aircraft is no longer airworthy for whatever reason and what the salvage value will be.

From your description of the cabin pressure it looks like the aircraft is losing about half it's diff somewhere. If the one window was the culprit I do not think that there would be any ambiguity about it, you would hear it leaving at that location. At any rate, the mechanics that are familiar with the airframe usually know the weakspots and can find the leaks.

Does the aircraft have a good sized oxygen bottle installed?

Whatever that turbine is buring at 7500' it has be burn a lot less at normal cruise levels. I remember hearing somewhere that the -1 powered IIB Merlins were burning 50 gph at cruise.

Your ingenuity in finding and working with the right mechanics on this airframe will be a must in terms of keeping the costs down.


If I were serious about that plane, I would want to ride with the pilot for at least a week to make sure that the engine guages are working and not too erratic (transducers cost 4-5k each), along with checking all other equipment over several flights.

Good luck!

That's a good point, Erwin. It's unlikely I'll get the money back on an oddball like this when its time is up. Something to consider, for sure. Obviously the value won't be zero, but certainly drastically reduced.

On the AOA board we've been talking about potential future diesel upgrades for the Aerostars. That would be a great solution for the A* and many other legacy twins. I would have loved to be able to do that. All of a sudden the fuel costs drop by 30%, you can go anywhere in the world and not have to worry about fuel etc. But, it's most likely gonna cost $300K to upgrade and it's still years, maybe decades away. First the engines have to be certified, then someone will have to certify the STC etc..

I think this is the situation that the current owner finds himself in. I don't know why the circumstances would change if you were the seller and not the potential buyer. Barring some sort of draconian AD, or a life limited airframe, airplane values just don't drop off a cliff, so if you buy it at the actual market price now, you should be able to sell it at the actual market price in a few years for very little loss, if any (less maintenance).

Bam, there's your issue. Don't buy the plane unless you budget $10K+ chasing down leaks. As for fuel burn up high, just throw some masks on and go find out. I think 65 is low. The straight -1 engines (at least in the MU2) burn 55-65 GPH at altitude, and it really takes getting well into the flight levels to get the fuel burns down. And even without any cabin leaks, 4.0 PSI is probably not going to get you high enough to get the fuel flows down.

The advantage of the -151/super one conversion (http://www.nationalflight.com/mu-2f-2g- ... ersion.php) is the ability to burn more fuel up high. I suspect you're looking at 70-75 gph at FL180.

That's the question - what is the market price for this airplane. There are a total of six active 680-V's on the FAA registry. Flight Aware shows two that have flown in the last six months. This is not a market.

The airplane will have few salable parts and it's very likely that it's resale value will be purely for scrap metal once the engines are off.

$75K cash, bet you walk away with a plane.

That's the question - what is the market price for this airplane. There are a total of six active 680-V's on the FAA registry. Flight Aware shows two that have flown in the last six months. This is not a market.

The airplane will have few salable parts and it's very likely that it's resale value will be purely for scrap metal once the engines are off.

$75K cash, bet you walk away with a plane.

The plane hasn't sold yet at $175. Let's assume it's worth $150K max. Right now you have a plane that is functionally unpressurized and will go probably 180-200 knots, basically you have a 75 gph Chieftain.

The plane is 1000 hours from TBO. An overhaul is not going to happen. You either scrap the plane, buy mid-time engines, or just do the hot section and move on. Either way, that's minimum $50-$100K investment. So the plane has 1000 hours of life left. After that you can resurrect it if you can find a good deal on engines. With runout engines, you're unlikely to get much parting the plane our.

So how much do you want to pay for a plane that is good for 1000 more hours and at present will do what a chieftain will do at twice the fuel burn. With ??? invested in pressurization, you get something that will do what a 421 will do at twice the fuel burn.

Yeah, maybe $100K, but I think $75K is about the right place.

I hear you on the A*. I love mine too. I also wish I had those diesels, but I can't wait either. If you buy this thing, you'd better get some tools and keep your A* as a backup.

Pinto showed me a trick the other day for finding leaks, it's dead simple. Go to altitude, get to max diff, and light a cigar. Follow the smoke.

Run, do not walk, in the other direction. This airplane will bankrupt you.

Jon, I don't see it as that bad. I respect your opinions highly so figure I'm missing something. What is wrong with this plane bought at $75K?

You will easily dump another $100K into it chasing issues and then still have a plane that's worth only $75K.

This plane is not going to get bought for $75K. Of course that would be great for me as a potential buyer, but I've also been a seller. I wouldn't sell my Aerostar for $75K either.

I've had talks with a pre-eminent Commander guru today. Gone through every item. It's not as bad as Charles makes it out to be, but it's not a $175K plane either, for sure. But we knew that - and the seller knows that.

We'll see where it ends up.

Let's assume I pay somewhere mid-100's for it. Chase down some gremlins for another $20K. I basically have a 690A, without any of the recurring SB's and the AD's. Even at a $100K hot sections in a few year, that's far cheaper than any 690 I've seen. They start at $300K with run outs. With mandatory gear tear down and pressure vessel inspections etc. A good one with times left is $500-600K. Does the same speed, is basically the same plane.

Doesn't sound too bad to me. But maybe I have a higher tolerance for oddballs. My first plane was a Commander 520 with completely unsupported GO-435's. They were great and ran well past TBO despite everyone's doomsday prognosis. Great plane.

Getting the cabin to where it holds max diff should be the sellers responsibility, included in the deal.

Adam, don't I recall you aren't instrument rated? Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

Flying anything with turbines around VFR will suck down lots of fuel. Are you prepared for that kind of fuel burn increase for not much performance gain compared to your Aerostar?

I'm instrument rated now.

This is the question I'm battling with anyhow. Is it worth doubling or some times tripling the fuel bill? Every time you fill up it's $1500 instead of $750. Is it worth maybe doubling MX?

Pro's:

1. It comes down to that dream trip I want to do to Europe in my own plane at some point. Yeah, for that it would be great - long range, easy to find fuel there and relatively cheap compared to Avgas (It's $0.9/L for Jet A1 and about $2.10/L for Avgas, so in Europe a turbine almost makes sense!!). I could land at the smaller airfield closer to my mum's summer house, rather than go to the big one much further away, etc.

2. I could attend the Backcountry fly-in in Idaho again.

3. I could generally save money by going to smaller airfields where there's no overnight fees etc when I travel for business.

4. I get more reliable power plants. I get extra safety in engine out scenarios.

5. I get a good compromise between a bush plane and business tourer. There aren't that many planes you can take to grass and gravel and still be able to fly pressurised in the FL's with good speed. It's basically Commanders and MU-2's.

6. I can get my bike in the back.

Con's:

1. All the stuff we talked about.

2. Resale value.

3. Age of airframe.

4. Maintenance.

5. Moneypitness.

Yesterday I was flying back from Stockton to LA in the Aerostar at 215kts (yeah, I had a little help with the winds) with a fuel burn leaned below 25gph. As I pushed nose over for descent ATC had to ask me to slow down as I was hitting 245kts.. That's pretty hard to beat and I was thinking to myself "Adam, what the hell are you thinking - this is all you ever need".

Driving me mad, this.

Erwin - agreed. Or at least reduced to reflect this.

Craig - I wish I could keep both, but it'll have to be one or the other.