The biggest advantages to homebuilts stem from the ability to install all kinds of unapproved goodies under the hood and in the panel. But if you didn't build it you can't get a Repairman's Certificate, meaning you can't do anything yourself that you couldn't do to a certificated airplane. For instance, you can use spark plug wires from John Deere or avionics from Dynon, but you still have to have someone sign off on it.

In the real, litigious world, how does this work? Does he put a note in the log saying "Installed and tested MindReader 2 IOW instructions. Not approved. I'm not saying it'll work. No ICA, being as it isn't "airworthy" to begin with."? Is it a problem getting an A&P/IA to work on them? What about composite work? No use getting a Velocity if hangar rash totals it.

Arlen and Todd have me thinking. Some time in the next 10-15 years I'll stop working for pay. Depending on where my kids live, I'll be looking to get the unobtainable combination of Fast, Cheap, and Reliable. Something like a Glasair SuperIIS FT would come very close to filling the bill.

Stuart,

The Repairman's Cert can be earned by the actual builder, and that allows him/her to conduct and sign off on his/her own "Condition Inspection" (what we call an annual). For me (not the builder of my RV-6), I need to have an A&P (no IA required) sign off my CI.

Anyone can work on the plane anytime. My local auto electric shop "overhauled" my alternator last month.

Things like avionics are not "unapproved" but are just not officially FAA certified......so they are MUCH less expensive. If I had the time and talent, I could install them myself. From what I can tell, the Garmin or Dynon or Grand Rapids Tech EFIS's or autopilots are better that the certified Garmin and S-Tec stuff.

By the way, I think that Experimental planes are the hope for the future of GA.

What does it take to put a certified plane into the experimental category? It's been done before, by people that work on STC stuff for cert planes - make their own a test mule. For one perspective - say you take a $30K Bo or even Cherokee and make it exp? Even if not the builder - you can add all sort of the stuff that Arlen mentions. Can you then sell the plane as exp? If you put some low cost / highly useful mods to it - you might easily even increase the value of the plane. Not relaly much to loose on the downside it might seem.

Just thinking... ... ...

I've often said, that the biggest advantage of experimental aircraft is that you can do things without FAA approval.


The biggest disadvantage, is you can do things without FAA approval.


It still has to be airworthy. I.e., if you use stove bolts for structural fasteners, it isn't going to be airworthy. The condition inspection is to make sure that it is in fact airworthy.


Perfect example is Arlen's alternator...rebuilt locally, much cheaper, not more prone to failure. Doesn't have the paper trail, but it's still "airworthy" (i.e., not dangerous, not going to make the engine fail, etc).



Putting a former standard category airplane into experimental is dicey. Some have been done (the Aerostar with the single turboprop), and the FAA has issued an airworthiness certificate in the "proof of concept" category. Most of the time, those certificates are time limited, and are only for proof of concept, early testing by manufacturer, etc. But some have been done, and sold....AFAIK, the turboprop Aerostar is still flying.

Wait.....You don't have to get everything signed off? Amazing.

Nope, just for the condition inspection. Just finished mine last week. That's why I bought the RV!

Exactly, Stuart. What we have learned is that there is no longer "magic" to make these planes fly. We now know that certain bolts should be used, fuel systems have to be designed a certain way, etc, but you no longer need to have a sign off to remove a seat in a plane or change a radio.

This is exactly why I bought the Glasair. I am putting in a dual screen touch screen PFD, autopilot, engine monitor, SVT and HITS, for less than $15k. Try that in a Bonanza. I am also installing a quickly removable fuel tank in the plane for long cross country trips. When my alternator breaks I will take it to NAPA and get an exchange. I am running electronic ignition on one side that is better than both mags running normally. When I need my landing gear motor rebuilt it will cost about $150. Landing struts - about $150. Autopilot servo - $750. PFD screen failure - $1000. Hangar rash on a rudder - $300.

There are downsides, but in my opinion those downsides are only applicable to low time or pilots that do not have the skill or attention to fly a heavily loaded wing. If that is a concern you buy an RV-6 and still get 170 knots on a plane that lands like a 172

If I want to get another 30 HP out of my plane I can pull off the cylinders and install 10.5:1 pistons and crank up the fuel a bit.

Lots of options.

Also, the "condition inspection" is just an opinion of a mechanic to say he looked at the aircraft and did not see anything "unairworthy" from a general standpoint. He is not making the determination of the build or it's integrity. My local shop will do a condition inspection, but he is very upfront - "Todd, I have no idea of the Helicycle is airworthy or not. I will look it over, tell you things I would recommend and then sign it off.. It's your butt if it comes apart in the sky."

I've manufactured my own accessory drive gear that bolts on the end of my left handed crank shaft in my O-360 powered RV-6A. It's about to roll over to 1000 hours on the engine and airframe on the next flight. Is it airworthy?

I love owning an experimental.

Dave

Todd,

I think you've put the experimental bug in a lot of BT'ers with that Glasair. Looking at their website a complete III kit with pre-built wings and fuselage is about 90k. I think it would be a fun project. I imagine the engine is included in the complete kit. ....90k just seems like a steal.

http://www.glasairaviation.com/glasairhowtobuy.html

Matt

I was at Soloy in Olympia last month. They had a C-182 prominently labeled "Experimental". I asked what the deal was. They explained that they were prototyping a camera or FLIR out on the wing or something and due to the W&B/yaw/drag it was easier to declare the plane experimental than try to get approval for every time they wanted to make a change. How do you get back once you're done? I asked. The guy rolled his eyes and said, "Paperwork. Lots of it."

In Wisconsin Tom Brown hand built an amazing Waco biplane replica. As his day job is welding stainless pipe for dairies, you can imagine the beautiful work on the fuselage, exhaust, landing gear, etc. The entire thing was beyond gorgeous. Somebody asked him why not find a data plate of an old Waco and build an airplane around it? He said because then it would be certified. Have to find an IA to do an annual every year. Have to file a 337 every time you wanted to modify anything. Far too much trouble. Experimentals were easier and far cheaper.

I took one of my Extra 300s from certified to experimental. It was great because I was doing the Airshows but if I wasn't it would have really hurt its value. But after that is the list of conditions your FSDO writes into your operating certificate and this is up to them. First off they probably won't let you do it, you have to have a very convincing reason why you need to do it..

Rocky

We have almost 1000 hours on the RV10 and apart from a electric boost pump that failed (next flight after Walter was in it ) and a few intake gaskets which are normal for Lycomings, this has been almost trouble free.

The only dispatch reliability issue was the pump and intake gaskets, so all in all it has been around 99% dispatch rate.

And I just did a GTN750 and SV upgrade....imagine the costs and time it would have taken had this been an A36.

Oh deary deary me - it was information overloadsville before you did that!

I think I will just look out the window now - even in IMC.

Unless they've recently changed, the "complete" kit doesn't include interior, avionics, or anything in front of the firewall. And it's only a steal if someone else builds it. A person with a normal job and a family could easily work 10 hours a week for a decade before finishing a Glasair III.