banner
banner

27 May 2018, 19:40 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


DShannon Aviation (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 64 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 14:58 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/19/15
Posts: 564
Post Likes: +326
Company: Centurion LV
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KSMO
Aircraft: Mirage N345RP
If he errors on the side of caution it has minor consequences, error on the other side and its deadly.

You have to trust the PIC and his decision at that second. Unless you were in his seat at the moment in time you can not judge his call. A Captain does not have the luxury of hindsight, he acts with the data he has at that time.

Its not like he called for evacuation to harm the company or for ill intent. His intent was clearly in the right place. He obviously cared enough to take the risk of minor injuries which he knew would happen if he made the call.

I cant imagine the horror of burning or being responsible for anyone to burn. My knee jerk reactions would be on the conservative side to make sure that did not happen.

BTW- I did not personally like the way the 60 minutes piece was done. Seemed one sided and aimed to harm. Seems like thats the way of news or reporting these days, they use the media for an agenda. It sure seemed like someone had a agenda with this piece.

Would have been fair to report on their safety record since they got rid of the MD-80's

Mike

_________________
InstaGram @Mtpyle and my company @CenturionLV


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 15:42 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 04/02/13
Posts: 13
Post Likes: +2
Location: Sequim, Washington
Aircraft: 172 trainer T.T.S.P.
To start with, 60 Minutes is about as biased and untruthful as it can be, always has been. They are liars now and were from the start. It is obvious from watching this piece of garbage that they did absolutely no research, just a bunch of hype. The PIC shouldn't be second guessed by the company, isn't that why they made him PIC? To fire him for using his discretion in this incident is really lame. The court case will be interesting and BOTH sides get to present their case, not just one.

_________________
Keep your wings up and the wind at your tail


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 16:59 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 05/11/10
Posts: 7546
Post Likes: +3844
Location: Indianapolis, IN (KMQJ)
Aircraft: Cessna 185
Apparently, Allegiant management has two accounts on BT!
Attachment:
EE5564D7-E7A8-4B70-876C-C40DD7B570EB.png


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 17:22 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/11/18
Posts: 160
Post Likes: +33
Aircraft: A36 & A330
Username Protected wrote:
To start with, 60 Minutes is about as biased and untruthful as it can be, always has been. They are liars now and were from the start. It is obvious from watching this piece of garbage that they did absolutely no research, just a bunch of hype. The PIC shouldn't be second guessed by the company, isn't that why they made him PIC? To fire him for using his discretion in this incident is really lame. The court case will be interesting and BOTH sides get to present their case, not just one.

Let's just call it a Banana. :lol:

_________________
"I rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 18:43 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 07/02/13
Posts: 1944
Post Likes: +1339
Location: Stamping Ground, Ky
Aircraft: twin bonanza
Username Protected wrote:

Maybe, but ultimately I support the airline's right to fire him, even if I concluded it was a wrong decision.
[/quote]
Then you don’t understand the airline industry. Firing for a crime is one thing. If you want an example of what happens when you fire someone for a safety call, read the El Faro thread.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 18:46 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 635
Post Likes: +118
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 2006 Meridian
Username Protected wrote:
To start with, 60 Minutes is about as biased and untruthful as it can be, always has been. They are liars now and were from the start. It is obvious from watching this piece of garbage that they did absolutely no research, just a bunch of hype. The PIC shouldn't be second guessed by the company, isn't that why they made him PIC? To fire him for using his discretion in this incident is really lame. The court case will be interesting and BOTH sides get to present their case, not just one.

Can you tell us specifically what parts were untruthful? I'd love to know what you know that the rest of us don't.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 19:08 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 03/08/14
Posts: 193
Post Likes: +68
Location: LL10
Aircraft: PA-28R-200 Arrow II
Having worked for an airline that put corporate finances above safety and one that is much more safety oriented, everything I saw in that 60 Minutes show was dead on with my experience at the bad airline.

It also matches what pilot friends who have worked there have told me.

Eric


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 22:50 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/15/15
Posts: 27
Post Likes: +11
Company: None
Location: New Iberia,La
Aircraft: E-18s
The Capt. was protecting the assets, the paying passengers.And when in doubt err on the side of caution protect the passengers at all costs, including the aircraft if needs be.If I was still current I would not even give this outfit a passing glance.Loyalty goes both ways.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 08:18 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 4518
Post Likes: +817
Location: Oklahoma City, OK (KPWA)
Aircraft: planeless
Username Protected wrote:

Maybe, but ultimately I support the airline's right to fire him, even if I concluded it was a wrong decision.

Then you don’t understand the airline industry. Firing for a crime is one thing. If you want an example of what happens when you fire someone for a safety call, read the El Faro thread.


I never claimed to understand it. But I do understand freedom. Now you have to commit a crime to get fired? I fired my plumber the other day. I wonder if I should face a lawsuit for it?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 08:55 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 07/02/13
Posts: 1944
Post Likes: +1339
Location: Stamping Ground, Ky
Aircraft: twin bonanza
Username Protected wrote:

I never claimed to understand it. But I do understand freedom. Now you have to commit a crime to get fired? I fired my plumber the other day. I wonder if I should face a lawsuit for it?

It is more complicated than plumbing. The gist of it is that in the airlines, there is short term profit to be had by circumventing safety rules. Those rules are expensive to obey, and management invariably will reward the guys who cut corners, take broken airplanes, and take the most chances to get the schedule done. Those same guys make Captain early, as on schedule is the only metric someone is judged on. In that environment, accidents eventually occur, but it takes a few years. In the mean time, whatever safety culture was in place inevitably erodes away. The upshot is that a number of mechanisms are in place to limit the "freedom" of unscrupulous managers to fire pilots for doing the safe thing. If you do your job, and can back it up with Regs and reason, it is ( should be ) difficult to fire a seniority list employee, unless they are not following procedure and standards ( i.e. committing crimes, is how it is often phrased)

Read the El Faro narrative. Tip of the iceberg.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 09:43 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 01/29/18
Posts: 29
Post Likes: +47
Company: Jet Test and Transport
Location: South Jersey
Aircraft: Aerostar600, CE550
I was a pilot for Allegiant for 10 years. I was Hired in 2005 on to the MD-80 out of LAS. I upgraded after a year. Prior to AAY I was a DHC-8 Capt for several years.. I was a Capt there for 9 years (8 on the MD-80, and 1 year on the A320) and was part of the A320 Initial Cadre. I was based in LAS and PIE. I was also a union organizer. When I was hired AAY had 8 airplanes and 2 bases, plus 2 small charter bases. I left in 2015, but I'd say I'm a pretty good resource on AAY info.

The airline has a really F'd up corporate culture and has ever since about the time it went public. Most of it revolves around an obsession with saving money, which has benefited the company tremendously with regard to profits. This extreme thrift is a major factor behind the maintenance issues. Back when I was there, the engine strategy on the MD80 fleet was to acquire as many "green-time" Jt8D-219 engines as they could and run them to zero time; drop them off and hang another short timer engine in its place. At one point we had probably 10+ engines on an oil consumption program and/or a high EGT program where we actually did MAX PWR Take-offs (ART switch Off) to get the extra margin instead of reducing thrust. In other words, the engines were old and running hot, but rather than being kind to them, we ran them even harder, but at a 2-cycle credit because we used a mode that allowed for higher EGT on takeoff. That was back in the day when we were having 5+ Engine failures a year!

Maintenance turnover is high there. The mechanics (at least back then) were non-union and the pay was garbage. The best people came and went like the wind to greener pastures. There are some good mechanics there, but not many - and we carried a TON of write ups at all times.

Their flight ops management philosophy is the direct hiring of outside (young and minimally experienced) management pilots. Many of the fleet managers, training managers, and check airman are simply "yes-men" that carry out orders from the top. There are a few quality folks, but they are the minority. There is a ton of animosity between the line pilots and the management pilots and there are a lot of young egos in management roles that perpetuate that. I could only imagine that the maintenance side is the same way.

The good news for Allegiant is that you CANNOT operate an Airbus like an MD-80. You simply can't defer items indefinitely, and CFM56-5B engines are too expensive to play the green-time "swap-and-pray" method. Most are on engine programs anyway. Maintenance wise, things have improved to my knowledge and will continue to as the mad dogs are phased out and the newer Airbi move in to service.

I feel really bad for the good people that are there that not only put up with the endless bullsh!t from management, but also now have to put up with the aftermath of the 60 minutes piece. I don't think Allegiant is alone as far as these issues go, but the MD80s have sure made it a lot more visible. MG the system chief pilot is one of the good guys. In fact, he's one of the most qualified and intelligent (and fair) CP's I've ever worked for. It's only a matter of time before he's had enough in my opinion.

Anyway thats just my .02


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 09:49 
Offline


 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 8996
Post Likes: +8376
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: MU-2B-26, N305DS
Username Protected wrote:
Can you tell us specifically what parts were untruthful?

For some reason, people think that if you tell the truth, you aren't unbiased.

Bias is mostly manifested by which parts of the truth you tell, and what conclusion you insinuate from those selected truths.

Facts from the same exact event can be presented on CNN or FoxNews. Both can report absolutely true facts. That does not make them unbiased by any means.

There is no news any more, there is only attention bait. Objectivity is boring. Drama and sensationalism sells. The "news" manufacturers are giving us what we want, not what we really need.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 13:40 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 635
Post Likes: +118
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 2006 Meridian
I don't disagree with you on most of these points. If people choose to blindly follow their network of choice without fact checking or doing some sort of due diligence on their own they are likely just reinforcing their own beliefs. Caveat emptor. Human nature when it comes to natural bias. However, you answered a question that was never asked. I asked what part was untruthful. I didn't ask about bias.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 14:15 
Offline


 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 8996
Post Likes: +8376
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: MU-2B-26, N305DS
Username Protected wrote:
I asked what part was untruthful.

The selective use of truth to create a false impression.

The 60 minutes story would lead one to believe Allegiant is operating differently and dangerously from other US airlines. In all likelihood, their practices and record is not that different from many others and an objective analysis would probably show they are not that much of an outlier.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 14:39 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 635
Post Likes: +118
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 2006 Meridian
OK, I disagree with that. Just based purely on the number of incidents, relative to the rest of the industry, points out a culture that does not prize safety as much as others do. I value the data and value of the judgement of Allegient pilots and staff who are/were closely tied to the company that chatter on this forum. Perhaps that is my bias.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 64 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2018

.sureflight-85x50.jpg.
.Avionics_BeechTalk_ad_85x50.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2017-07-07.jpg.
.hpair-85x50.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.dshannon.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.pwi-85x50.jpg.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.instar.jpg.
.concorde-2017-11-01.jpg.
.Trace.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.AviationCreation_85x50.jpg.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.metarmap_85x50.jpg.
.truecourse.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.aps-85x150.jpg.
.Blackhawk_85x100.jpg.
.flightbox.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.wealthserve-85x50-2015-02-16.jpg.
.Contour.jpg.
.nexair_85x100.jpg.
.teebee.png.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.wilco.jpg.
.heartlandsm.jpg.
.goodrich-85x150-2018-05-01.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.globalparts-85x50.jpg.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.
.americanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.WaypointLighting.jpg.
.westsky.jpg.
.ForeFlight.jpeg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.fliteelectronics.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.wholesalepowertools.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.Nexus.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.Outright_85_50.png.
.avfab-85x50.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.carolina-85x50-2017-09-14.jpg.
.cubcrafters.jpg.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.lopresti_85x50.jpg.
.ffc-85x100.jpg.
.jaair-85x100.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.weatherspork_85x50.jpg.
.tulsair-85x50.jpg.
.avidyne-85x50-2017-11-22.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.Showalter.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.jetfuelx-85x50.jpg.
.selectairparts-85x100.jpg.
.CAV_85x50_2017_12_4.jpg.
.EagleFuelCellsTriple.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.jlosborne-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.PistonPower_85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.wildblue_85x50.jpg.
.airpowerred.jpg.
.jetacquisitions-85x50.png.