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27 May 2018, 19:45 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 14:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
If #1 had been on fire (or there was any fire for that matter)

Then ATC would call the captain and say so. ATC is the number one way captains find out they are on fire on the ground.

ARFF units are already on scene and would be putting out the fire if they saw flames or serious smoke.

ARFF would not be saying to not evacuate.

Evacuating isn't wrong, but the evidence tends to weight more towards the "no" side than the "yes", IMO. It is a difficult judgment call. Airliners get a lot of funny smells in them sometimes. I would not fire the captain for this in any case.

Quote:
and it spread to the cabin resulting in burn injuries and deaths to passengers

A fire in a fuselage pylon mounted engine is unlikely to spread so fast as to cause death to passengers before they could evacuate.

Examples of ground fires with evacuations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_GtEybmaPg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJfxJMvb3E4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXF5yZZe8nQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1bcZF3vAEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qyZFASOAe0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc8CNFY33tE

I don't believe there was a single fatality in any of the above cases and most of them were FAR more serious and didn't have ARFF on scene with a well developed fire going on.

The China Airlines accident, involving a *WING* mounted engine, actually had quite a delay in evacuation, about 2 minutes from fire to evacuate order. The captain finally got off 4 minutes after the fire. No fatalities.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 14:40 
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Whether or not to order an emergency evacuation , and blow the slides is one of the toughest decisions a captain can make. Injuries are not uncommon in an emergency evacuation, and the captain has to quickly weigh the risks with the situation that exists. I find it difficult to fault this captain's decision with the information we have been provided with. Economic considerations always take a back seat to passenger safety.


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 14:49 
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The smoke could have been from a lot of things, a seal let loose allowing oil into the compressor section and into the bleed air, or any number of things, but hindsight is 20/20.


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 15:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
My assessment is that the evacuation command was probably unwarranted, but it is a gray area. The ARFF folks had said to not evacuate. The smell was dissipating, and there was no smoke in the cabin, and ARFF reported no fire. ARFF did say there was some smoke on #1 engine outside, though. Mike C.


There was enough confusion- smoke smell, and ARFF reported fire- to make an emergency decision to evacuate.

"Preserving company assets" is right up there with "re-accommodating passengers"!


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 15:40 
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This would be a good sim scenario. You're taxiing and the FA says she smells burning rubber. Then play it out, complete with instructions from unknown sources saying to evacuate or not to. I wonder what most captains would do. This wouldn't be a way to tell what's correct, but if they run the sim 100 times and only two captains order the evacuation, that would bolster the airline's case.


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 15:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
This would be a good sim scenario. You're taxiing and the FA says she smells burning rubber. Then play it out, complete with instructions from unknown sources saying to evacuate or not to. I wonder what most captains would do.

In a sim? They would almost always evacuate. Nobody is being put at risk. In general, scenarios like this are created precisely to have you do the drill, so a sim pilot rarely, if ever, chooses the "don't do" option since they are here to train the procedure. Also, the sim can't recreate all the sensory inputs, noise, smells, actions, vibrations, radio traffic, etc.

In real life? Not as easy a question.

The sim is a great tool for learning procedures, it is not really a substitute for a hard question like this one, so I think your method to research this won't be fruitful.

The captain should not be fired for using his discretion.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 00:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
This would be a good sim scenario. You're taxiing and the FA says she smells burning rubber. Then play it out, complete with instructions from unknown sources saying to evacuate or not to. I wonder what most captains would do.

In a sim? They would almost always evacuate. Nobody is being put at risk. In general, scenarios like this are created precisely to have you do the drill, so a sim pilot rarely, if ever, chooses the "don't do" option since they are here to train the procedure. Also, the sim can't recreate all the sensory inputs, noise, smells, actions, vibrations, radio traffic, etc.

In real life? Not as easy a question.

The sim is a great tool for learning procedures, it is not really a substitute for a hard question like this one, so I think your method to research this won't be fruitful.

The captain should not be fired for using his discretion.

Mike C.


Mike,

A matter of semantics. It’s not the Captain’s discretion, it is his mandated authority.

Eric

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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 09:47 
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Wouldn't it be at his discretion as to whether to use his mandated authority?


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Mike,

A matter of semantics. It’s not the Captain’s discretion, it is his mandated authority.

Eric


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 10:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
Wouldn't it be at his discretion as to whether to use his mandated authority?


If it truly was at his discretion, then nobody would be having a problem with the decision he made, at that time, with the information available, knowing even that his information is limited, the responsibility of the safety of all on board and the clock ticking on what could turn into anything real fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 10:22 
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The captain made the wrong call and people got hurt as a result. Should he be fired for it? Beats me. But I can tell you that crappy 60 minutes piece didn’t even bother reporting it that way. It was a hit piece plain and simple and I found it disgusting.


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 10:54 
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My guiding principal for 35 years was from my dad who was a TWA captain for 30 years......

“Captains authority - use it or lose it”.

He also advised me to put $10,000 in the bank for the FAA so I’d feel free to do what was right-not what the company or the FAA wanted me to do.

Pretty smart guy I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 11:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
Should he be fired for it? Beats me.
If you think it's a defensible call, then I think no.


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 11:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
Should he be fired for it? Beats me.
If you think it's a defensible call, then I think no.


Maybe, but ultimately I support the airline's right to fire him, even if I concluded it was a wrong decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 13:07 
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There are several documented cases of mass casualties resulting from aircraft fires while the aircraft is on the ground. One case that comes to mind is Saudia Flight 163. If I recall correctly, it was an L-1011 that did have a fire in the air but landed just fine and actually was taxing back to the gates. Everyone died. No evac order killed like 300 people. Aeroflot has had this happen a couple times too.


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 Post subject: Re: Allegiant Airlines 60 Minutes
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 14:05 
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Fires can erupt rapidly and kill people from smoke inhalation. Better the get off, while the getting is good. Rather than wait for it to be foamed and fire fighters go through picking out 100+ bodies. Or evacuating with a real blaze, a lot more people will get injured and more severely too.


Fires on the ground?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=aircraft ... 20&bih=949

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