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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 15:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
Airplane designs should protect us from "stupid pilot tricks"

Over and out

a bit amusing that after the anti-airbus rant, you close out by agreeing with the airbus philosophy


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 15:30 
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Quote:
a bit amusing that after the anti-airbus rant, you close out by agreeing with the airbus philosophy

But...the airbus philosophy didn't.....work.

Still askin'; any Boeing planes fly themselves into the ground at the end of a runway because the pilot wasn't real sure what his throttle settings were? (Crickets....)

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 15:38 
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:bud: Asiana 214. Boeing 777-200ER KSFO July 06, 2013?


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 15:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
But...the airbus philosophy didn't.....work.

I disagree, it clearly does work as they are selling more airplanes than anyone else. There is a race to the bottom in the abilities of skilled trades of all kinds, including driving airplanes, so there inevitably needs to be more automation to make up for human failings. We don't have to like it, but the simple truth is that most of the world's pilots are not going to have learned their trade flying cancelled checks single-pilot no-autopilot in all weather. Those days are over. Future cockpits are homes for pilots who have never known anything other than button mashing.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 15:56 
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Forrest, I don;t think that was the same scenario at all....as flying a low pass at an airshow & then not knowing where the throttles are at.
:bud:

Jeff,
Quote:
I disagree, it clearly does work as they are selling more airplanes than anyone else.

Cessna sold more 172's in many years than Beechcraft sold Bonanzas, that doesn't make Cessna a better plane.

On the "well, it's all going to be button pushers pretty soon anyways" ideal, you may be right, and as soon as I become convinced of that, it'll be the last time I fly commercial. For that matter, if you think I'm sensitive about it, wait until a few accidents happen & the public gets ahold of it....won't be an airline pilot or plane shortage any more...

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 16:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
On the "well, it's all going to be button pushers pretty soon anyways" ideal, you may be right, and as soon as I become convinced of that, it'll be the last time I fly commercial. For that matter, if you think I'm sensitive about it, wait until a few accidents happen & the public gets ahold of it....won't be an airline pilot or plane shortage any more...

it's already there. Every time I hear the cabin announcement on certain carriers and it's not an expat pilot accent, I'm thankful the plane has plenty of automation. And let's not kid ourselves, boeing has just as many computers helping and watching as airbus. The debate in this thread implies a fundamental difference but there is not. It's just nuances of interfaces that people are getting wrapped around.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 16:22 
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Chris,

You are absolutely correct. They were flying an approach and had no idea where the throttles were.

The similarity is not understanding the systems of your aircraft. A loss of situational awareness will get you regardless of who designed or built the machine.

If you are coming to Airbus from Boeing, you will need to develop some different skills.
They are not the same. The trim wheel is not going to bang you in the knee and tell you that the trim is changing. The thrust levers will not indicate a thrust change. That does not mean it is difficult to realize those changes are occurring. It just requires learning new cues.

I have been flying and teaching others to fly Airbus for 18 years. Once the skills are learned, it becomes a pleasure to fly. Most long time Boeing guys tell me that they wished they had come over sooner.

There are things I miss about a Boeing. It hand flies much better and is much easier in a strong crosswind. I don't hand fly much at work. That is why I have a Bonanza.

When properly understood, I feel the protections offered in an Airbus offer a higher level of safety than I had in a Boeing. Although, I admit to having no experience in the latest generation.

I'm not trying to make you love Airbus. I'm just giving you my experience of 18 years on 319/320/321/330/350 Airbuses.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 17:46 
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Well, I had 2-1/2 years on the A310 Airbus. That was after 23+ years on the 707/747. Learning the new glass instrumentation was difficult, but I managed and got the type rating. The A310 is about the same size aircraft as the B767. It had a nice big control column, no side stick, so it was rather like the Boeings in that respect. It would do Cat IIIB approaches and landings and I did one actual 600 feet RVR approach and landing at Paris. Everything worked as programed and I do not think we actually had 600 feet visibility but rather about 1/2 of that!!

But the guy that designed the throttles (for manual pilot operated use) was probably never in a real airplane. On the 747 it took a hefty, long push on the throttles to go from ground idle to take off thrust, I mean about 6+ inches. The A310 seemed like about 2 inches or less did the same thing. Of course they were FADEC controlled engines so usually you would just click the triggers on the throttles to do the TO thrust thing. But inflight if the pilot were manipulating the throttles it was difficult to make the appropriate throttle movement. The solution was to use the auto throttles and dial in the desired airspeed.

I never did auto pilot approaches and landings in the A310 except for that one CATIII approach. I hand flew all of them just as I did in the 747 and 707. Of course I did plenty of them in the simulator to get qualified to do them if the need arose, but in the airplane I flew many VMC regular patterns, not a great deal bigger than a Bonanza pattern, in all of the airliners I flew. Of course most of them were more or less straight in due to following the airplane ahead at a major terminal. But there would be a fair percentage of landings that were not straight in but regular airport patterns or when doing the high overhead at SFO when landing on RWY 28 and coming from the NW..

The A310 landing gear was stiffer than the Boeings but good touchdowns could still be the normal result. But I think no airplane could possibly be better for very smooth landings than the 747.

But those days are now long gone for me (since December 5th, 1991) and so I just keep in practice with my Luscombe and G-35 V tail.

Regards, Lew Gage


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 19:41 
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Pffffftttt.....Boeing and Airbus build airplanes.....McDonnel/Douglas builds character...


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 19:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
Pffffftttt.....Boeing and Airbus build airplanes.....McDonnel/Douglas builds character...


5 years on DC 9-30 was all of the character building I could take :pilot:


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 00:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Pffffftttt.....Boeing and Airbus build airplanes.....McDonnel/Douglas builds character...


5 years on DC 9-30 was all of the character building I could take :pilot:


The closes I came to dying as a pax was in a DC 9-30 with small engines on a hot day commuting out of TUS. They did what I think is called an "overspeed takeoff" with just leading edge slats deployed and no flaps. As we passed the depture end BAK 12 arresting cable (joint use field) and had not rotated I put my newspaper down and thought WTF!

After landing in MSP when I asked the CA about the takeoff he stated he would never do one of those again and said he almost put out some trailing edge flaps at the last moment.

Re Airbus comments: Unless you have flown an Airbus I can't take your comments seriously. No issues with the thrust levers, computers, side stick in my 10 yrs on the a/c. Reliability surpassed any Boeing or McDonald Douglas I ever flew but that is not to say I did not enjoy flying those a/c as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 02:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
Unless you have flown an Airbus I can't take your comments seriously.


That about sums it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 03:16 
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A story of two guys.

First guy marries a beautiful woman who is even better to hold than she is to look at! She supports him, looks out for him and let’s him be the man. Then he gets hit with a problem at his work. Without asking, his new wife goes to work helping him. She provides spreadsheets , case law just a ton of great information that enables him to solve the problem and save his business.
He loves her now more than ever.

Second guy marries an ok looking woman but she is an even bigger workhorse than the other guys wife. He really likes that she makes his life so easy and is always doing things for him, protecting him, keeping him out of trouble.
Then he finds out that he has a major issue with his finances. He starts working the problem. When his wife finds out about it she steps in a takes over everything! She won’t allow him to even help, she says she doesn’t need his input. She’s got it handled! Once she completes her work she throws it all back to him.
Yes Its all fixed but not the way he would have done it. He would have preferred to do it his way. It’s dawning on him that he is married to a control freak.
After that he doesn’t enjoy being with her so much anymore. He finds himself making excuses to justify staying with her. He tells his buddies “hey it’s ok she’s got a joystick and a tray table you’ll learn to like her!

Boeing and Airbus.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 17:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
Pffffftttt.....Boeing and Airbus build airplanes.....McDonnell/Douglas builds character...

Especially that MD80. It was designed by a character alright!

Oh but that 717, the finest flying "McBoeing" ever built.

George

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing vs airbus
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 10:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Airbus pilot lived and was covering his arrogant butt by saying it wasn’t doing what he wanted

If the plane was doing what he wanted, why did he recycle the thrust levers from TOGA to idle to TOGA?

Whatever you say, that is a clear indication to me that the pilot and the plane were not on the same page as far as thrust command. The pilot did not feel he was getting the thrust he was commanding and he did something to try and get it, basically in the hope the computer would now listen to the thrust lever.

The recycling of the thrust lever was not an "after the fact" butt covering action, it was in the moment trying to resolve the ambiguity of why he was not getting the thrust he was expecting.

I'm also struck by the time between TOGA and hitting trees. Almost 5 seconds. FAR 33.73(b) states:

The design and construction of the engine must enable an increase ... From the fixed minimum flight idle power lever position when provided, or if not provided, from not more than 15 percent of the rated takeoff power or thrust available to 95 percent rated takeoff power or thrust in not over 5 seconds.

Going flight idle to TOGA SHOULD HAVE produced SUBSTANTIAL thrust, very nearly TOGA rating, in those 5 seconds. If you look at the video, it sure doesn't seem like the plane's thrust is increasing significantly in the 5 seconds prior to tree contact. The airplane was light, end of trip, and should have responded quickly to thrust increase.

Mike C.

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