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17 Dec 2017, 04:01 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2017, 22:22 
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The Asian markets are offering 10, 15, 20k per month starting salary + benefits depending on which aircraft and seat position. The US will not be able to compete with them (Asian airlines being government subsidies) and Asia will create a giant sucking sound for aviators.

I see a wave of pilot movement possible. Pilots start out in Asia. Then once they have time and experience and the airlines here are hurting enough, they start getting offers back in the states.

We'll see. But for now...there still isn't a full time job being offered even close to what I would consider taking.

-E

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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 11:31 
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Yes, there is talk of increasing the retirement age. However, the word is that it is unlikely to happen at least for the time being. Most likely outcome, is to allow those over 65 to continue flying but only as F/O as a stop gap measure.

Username Protected wrote:
Curious with the pilot "shortage" has there been any talk to increase the mandatory retirement age, seems like that would be a simple solution. I am sure there are many capable pilots over 65 and with a capable pilot in the other seat, seems like a logical step.


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 11:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Back a few years ago this was one of my favorite videos to describe what is actually happening! It is a pilot pay shortage as well as, honestly, the grind that pilots go through to fly for the airlines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKanuyeawc

This is a bit more recent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugwy03XwldI

<edit - Removed my comments around the arbitrary selection of "60" for the Age 60/65 rule and the idiocy surrounding the 1500 hour rule after Colgan 3407 since they are off-topic. >


I'm sorry, but Sullenberger is a moron.

So, 1500 hours never flying solo more than the 61 regs require and never going more than 25NM from their flight school. The same hour over and over again does not make experience.

The 1500hr rule didn't accomplish anything other than to make flight training more expensive with little to no added benefit of experience.


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 21:00 
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Geoff I think you are wrong. I also don't know of a USAFA graduate that I would call a moron.


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 06:09 
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He may not be a moron, but he's dead wrong about the 1500 hour rule. As Geoff said, it's possible to get your 1500 hours flying 100 students from zero to solo. Is that guy safer in an RJ's right seat than one who's spent 300 hours in a King Air's?

I haven't known enough USAFA grads to say whether there are any morons among them. But I know there are plenty of morons who've graduated from Harvard Medical School, and they're probably from the same pool as the Academy grads. No other school is too good to harbor, foster, create, or graduate idiots. I doubt the Air Force Academy is, either.


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 08:08 
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Ok. My daughter just turned 16. I'm a better driver than she is. We drive the same road over and over.

You are wrong about this. I'm not saying you can't be a good pilot with 300 hours but you will be a better one with 1500. You may learn a thing or two on way to 15,000 hours too.

How about I put it like this. I have been to many Dr's over the years but I don't give medical advice.

I was a CFII/MEI with 250 hours. I was a better pilot when I had more time. I will even tell you about the hardest students I had. The off the scale smart ones. You just couldn't tell them anything because they already knew it.

I'm not saying your a bad pilot or Dr. I'm never going to call you a moron. When a guy that has been flying longer than I have been alive says something I will listen to that idea.

I am lucky and get to work with many USAFA/USNA grads and have yet to see the first moron that graduated. I have never worked with a Harvard grad but my uneducated guess as to the difference would be money and understanding what service is.

I'm willing to say I could be wrong but having more experience sounds like a good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 09:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
He may not be a moron, but he's dead wrong about the 1500 hour rule. As Geoff said, it's possible to get your 1500 hours flying 100 students from zero to solo. Is that guy safer in an RJ's right seat than one who's spent 300 hours in a King Air's?


It depends. If you spent 300 hrs as PIC in a King Air flying freight through all kinds of weather, you are probably better off. If you spent it sitting on your hands in the right seat in some kind of pay-for-time scheme, not so much.

Likewise, 1,500 hours is not a great measure of actual practical experience, but it does have a value. It's possible to get 1,500 hrs teaching pre-solo students, but the reality is that by the time you accrue 1,500 hours you will likely be exposed to the cross-section of flying spectrum.

Personally, I worry more about those ab-initio wonders who are hired with zero hours and have no experience outside of highly automated airliner cockpit. That's how we get AF 447s and Asiana 214s.


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 17:07 
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Seems that the "1500 Hour Rule" speaks for itself in the safety record since its inception(no fatal U.S. air carrier crash in close to a decade). I wouldn't term Mr. Sullenberger "a moron" by any stretch of the imagination; He seems to stand up for us in GA quite nicely! I did my stint in the airlines and they can keep it.


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 17:48 
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"1500 Hour Rule"?

The big change was requiring an ATP to fly right seat.
(As well as adding to the minimum requirements for the rating.)

:btt:

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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 18:53 
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Management has won the race to the bottom. :scratch: Now no one wants to become a pro pilot anymore. Four years of college and 100 grand for flight training to enter at regional pay rates? Poor return on investment. They now reap what they have sown. Complete kaos in the scheduling department is resulting in massive cancelations at many airlines. :shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 19:19 
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I'm gonna disagree with some of the posts....

The airline business has been feast or famine from day one, and today is no exception. There are people that will do anything for a flying job and others will go else where.

With a college degree in something, you stand a better chance of making more money as an airline pilot that other careers. That's unless you end up with a specialty like a Dr., lawyer or self employed. It's still a good job overall, and one can choose to be senior and get the time off or be junior and go for the buck.

As for the 1500 hour rule, we can all agree that was absolutely stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 19:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
I fly for a major airline. Believe me, the 55 yo FO's are in poor enough shape - you definitely don't want most Capt flying at 65! The rigors of flying 85-100 hrs schedules are not sustainable. This is not your Fathers airline industry! When I started 68hrs max now 100, and the skedule gets built just she of that. Safety would dictate to five incentives to go at or before 60, but seeing how the airlines stole medical retiree benefits - that will never happen. Most senior fuys would have been long fone if not for that.

Ops, said too much already, but that's the reality of line flying in the broad perspective. Of course there are always exceptions to that.


Larry,

Gonna disagree with you on the 55 yo FOs. Most of them have come from some other flying experience, like military and are pretty good pilots.

85 to 100 hours is flown by a LOT of pilots, just fine. Depends on the routing and duty. Heck, when I was flying 85 hours a month I hand about 20 days off a month. I can live with that.

As for the guys older than 65, there's a ton of them that could out fly you blindfolded, sharper than a tack. They have the experience and skills do get the job done safely.

You need to get a job in corporate America... you probably have it pretty good. Heck, even after I retired at HALF pay and 1/8th the retirement after the bankruptcy, I was still better off than a corporate job. And no, your airline did not take med away.... Obama care did.

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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 19:30 
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Back in the day I flew with 2 new hire flight engineers, one with 660 hrs TT (F-16 guard) and one with 11,000 hrs, (most in a 152 doing pipeline) and the 660 hr pilot was WAY better than the 11,000 hr pilot. TT means NOTHING!! IMO


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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 19:45 
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One son is 28 and a Captain on a Falcon 50, got all his ratings at our home airport and making 6 figures.

The other son is 21, leaving next week to Tenn to get his A and P, then off to Dallas and American Flyers for CFI.

He will most likely come back and instruct at our local flight school.

It's a race for 21 year old to get 1500 hours, then lots of really decent jobs, maybe even getting hired at his bother's operation.

The 28 was hired and PIC typed in the 50 with NO training contract, go figure.
And he had NO turbine experience, but he did have 1200 hours instructing and 300 in our Baron.

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 Post subject: Re: 65yo mandatory retirement age
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 19:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Back in the day I flew with 2 new hire flight engineers, one with 660 hrs TT (F-16 guard) and one with 11,000 hrs, (most in a 152 doing pipeline) and the 660 hr pilot was WAY better than the 11,000 hr pilot. TT means NOTHING!! IMO


Grant,

Generally, that's not necessarily true, but the kind of time means a lot. I've flown with several of the above and some are good and some aren't so good.

The best FOs I've flown with are the ones that came up the GA way and flew for the commuters... basically doing the same thing they were hired to do for us. They may not make good flightier pilots.... don't know.

But, I've had some top notch military guys that got hired at age 50, with nothing but fighter and desk time and were great pilots.

Hard to paint everyone with the same brush.

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