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17 Dec 2017, 04:05 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 17:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
In my view there isn't a pilot shortage at the majors/legacies yet (and won't be for a long time if ever). There is certainly a shortage of people, however, willing to go to the regionals for the current pay rates (even the recently improved rates/bonuses, etc).


Here is the thing: the theory that regionals only have a shortage due to current pay rates implies that there are qualified pilots out there who could fill the regional's seats but won't because the pay is not enough. The question then is, what are those pilots are doing instead? I doubt there are many pilots who invested enough into their training to be qualified for ATP and then just walked away and changed the profession.

So if regionals desperately needed pilots and were willing to up the starting pay to, say, $100k, would that help? Sure, that change would cause more folks to look favorably at flying profession again and go into flight training. That will increase the supply of pilots 3-5 years down the road. But where do they get the pilots if they need them now?




In 1998 I was a flying left seat in a 121 turbo prop, making about 45K/Yr.

I left because of the schedule (plus commuting) and the pay.

The pay and schedules haven't improved enough to change my mind.
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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 18:08 
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Location: Gaithersburg , MD (KGAI)
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Our son is 28 and a Captain on a Falcon 50.

He flight instructed 2-3 years and was hired with 1700 total time.

The company sent him to CAE where they paid for his PIC Type rating with no contract.

Next year he will have over 1,000 hour Turbine PIC time.

He makes well over Regional pay rates, he would not be happy if I gave out the figure.

He will have the option to over fly the regionals and go to a major if and when they hire.

In the meantime, he is doing pretty well!

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 00:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
In my view there isn't a pilot shortage at the majors/legacies yet (and won't be for a long time if ever). There is certainly a shortage of people, however, willing to go to the regionals for the current pay rates (even the recently improved rates/bonuses, etc).


Here is the thing: the theory that regionals only have a shortage due to current pay rates implies that there are qualified pilots out there who could fill the regional's seats but won't because the pay is not enough. The question then is, what are those pilots are doing instead? I doubt there are many pilots who invested enough into their training to be qualified for ATP and then just walked away and changed the profession.

So if regionals desperately needed pilots and were willing to up the starting pay to, say, $100k, would that help? Sure, that change would cause more folks to look favorably at flying profession again and go into flight training. That will increase the supply of pilots 3-5 years down the road. But where do they get the pilots if they need them now?


Believe it or not, many regional pilots have left the aviation profession altogether in the last 10 years.

And yes, if they raised the starting pay to $100k at the regional it would definitely help. The majors currently have first year pay in the $90k to $100k range and there is no shortage of applicants.

-Neal
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Last edited on 03 Sep 2017, 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 08:36 
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Neal's posts have been an interesting addition to this discussion.

400 spots, 10k applications...

Sure makes it sound like Regionals are increasing pay to be barely acceptable level to get enough pilots, but the big carriers still have no issues.

Any truth to the "40% retirement turnover in the next ____ years"

How many seats is that?

Are the regional pilots in the same unions as the big guys? If so, why the huge pay disparity? (Not a political question, just curious).

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 08:57 
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This posting was found on the Frontier website this morning. This was posted on 7/26/17 and reinforces the conversation I had with one of their pilots who seats on the hiring panel.
Though no one would call Frontier a Legacy carrier, they are also not a Regional.

Requisition Number 17-0218
Post Date 7/26/2017
Title Frontier Airlines Pilot
City Various
Description
The First Officer is responsible for ensuring safe and timely flight operations in accordance with all Company policies and Federal Aviation Regulations. The duties of the First Officer include, but are not limited to:

Ensures the safe and timely completion of flight operations in accordance with all Company policies and Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).
Responsible for the operation of the aircraft during the designated period of duty unless relieved by Company authority. This involves operating the aircraft according to applicable Company policies and Federal Aviation Regulations.
Maintains a high degree of proficiency and a thorough knowledge of flight operations, procedures and systems applicable to the aircraft flown.
Through completion of appropriate pre and post-flight inspection, ensures the airworthy condition of assigned aircraft in accordance with Company policy and Federal Aviation Regulation.
Becomes familiar with existing and forecast departure, arrival, and if applicable, alternate station weather prior to each flight.
Ensures that the flight is planned and fueled properly so that it may be conducted safely and in accordance with current policies and regulations.
Assists with and ensures proper handling of aircraft, passenger, baggage, and cargo at terminal points where other company personnel are not available.
Notifies crew and passengers promptly of turbulence, adverse weather conditions or any other operational factors affecting the flight.
Ensures that the load manifest for a flight is reviewed and the passenger count is verified prior to each departure.
Requirements


Qualifications:

Preferred Minimums:

2500 hours total time
750 hours multi-engine fixed wing*¹
500 hours pilot in command (PIC)*²
500 hours jet/turbo-prop

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 09:04 
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Below is another posting, this time found on the Spirit airlines website, this time posted 8/29/17. Again, Spirit is not a Legacy but is also not a Regional commuter. Anyone flying A-320's are fairly significant player, even though I have no interest of ever flying on them!

One of my son's friends has been flying for WheelsUp and just got hired and starts In-doc the week after next with Spirit.


Requisition Number E17-0529
Post Date 8/29/2017
Title First Officer
City Fort Lauderdale
State FL
Description
Do you have the fortitude, enthusiasm and a can-do attitude that personifies an aviation professional? If so, then you might be the kind of crewmember we’re looking for? Spirit is searching for a distinctive kind of person who will help define who we are, while transporting our customers to destinations in the Caribbean, Central America, and South America in our modern fleet of Airbus A320 Series aircraft. If you possess the desire and ingenuity to make Spirit the most-respected airline in the industry, then we will continue to endeavor to make Spirit a company where motivated crewmembers like you will continually love to work.

Guarantee a safe and pleasant Spirit experience for all.
Safely assist the Captain in operating the aircraft in accordance with all Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) and company policies and procedures
Display a passion for customer service and for bringing a refreshing perspective to the airline industry.


Minimum Qualifications:

2,000 hours total time in fixed wing aircraft.
1,000 hours in multi-engine aircraft.
Current FAA First Class Medical Certificate.
Current Unrestricted Airline Transport Pilot License.
Valid passport/documents with the ability to travel in and out of the USA and all cities/countries served by Spirit Airlines now and in the future.
FCC Radio Telephone Operator Permit.


Preferred Requirements:

3,000 hours total time in fixed wing aircraft.
1,500 hours in multi-engine, turboprop or jet aircraft.
A320 Type Rating.
Undergraduate degree from an Accredited Four Year College or University.
Experience in 121 airlines or turbojet aircraft.
Experience in aircraft equipped with EFIS and/or FMS.
Instructor/Check Airman experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 09:18 
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One thing that some are not looking at is some of the regional lines have flow through agreements with a major carrier. Looking at the above post for example GoJet airline has one with Spirit, when your seniority number comes up you are offered a FO slot at Spitit. American has one with its regional, as well. My best friend flys at GoJet based at RDU he can upgrade to captain anytime but is waiting to see where his wife gets stationed (Army Officer) they are in contract negotiations now and will most likely see a big pay rate increase. So I think this is goin to be a interesting next few years. OBTW he also told me that some of their guys and gals are going overseas to foreign carriers.

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 09:24 
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Piedmont has a flow through with American.

Another sons friends has been with Piedmont for two years, having made Captain 6 months ago.

He thinks he will be at Piedmont for another 2 years and then flow directly into American.

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 09:36 
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Check out FO Pay at Spirit & Frontier:

https://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilo ... es-58.html
https://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilo ... es-33.html

:crazy:

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 09:45 
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Pull American's rates?

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 10:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
Pull American's rates?



http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... n_airlines

Better....

But as I have received no communication from American since they cashed the check attached to my application back in 1998, I'm thinking they aren't all THAT desperate for pilots.

:scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 11:28 
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Forrest:

That was almost 20 years ago, I know a ton of guys who have been hired by them in the interim.

If you were truly interested, I would think a follow up would make a lot of sense. but WDIK!

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 11:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Forrest:

That was almost 20 years ago, I know a ton of guys who have been hired by them in the interim.

If you were truly interested, I would think a follow up would make a lot of sense. but WDIK!



Back then I wanted a job with AAL (enough that I paid that $&@# application fee), today the idea of going back and doing the job is way down my list of priorities, I want control over my life a lot more than the opportunity to spend a few years as a junior FO.

Better that someone like Casey get the chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 14:24 
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Neal's comments are right on the mark, but there's more to the story.

It's not just about pay rates, it's about quality of life. Most of the regionals had/have horrible work rules. If you don't think that can drive you nuts, imagine being on the road for 4 days straight (12-13 hour days and/or 10 hour layovers), finally get back to base, and get told you're "junior manned" for another two days on the road...when you only had 3 days off to begin with. You wind up with maybe 8 days off a month. Even if you live in base, that kind of thing blows. Remember...when you're gone, you're gone. No doing honey-dos, paying bills, playing with the kids, or any of the other stuff people get done when they get done with work for the day.

I know some guys are say "what's so bad about that?"...go out and try doing it month after month, and you'll quickly change your tune. 5-6 legs a day, wonky, shifting hours, and never having a chance to have a decent meal. It will wear down even the most enthusiastic 24 year old fairly quickly.

Best,
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Im going to be an airline pilot - yes, pilot shortage ex
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 17:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
In 1998 I was a flying left seat in a 121 turbo prop, making about 45K/Yr.

I left because of the schedule (plus commuting) and the pay.

The pay and schedules haven't improved enough to change my mind.


If you stuck it out, you'd be a 15 year captain with a major making $200k and living the dream by now ;)


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