Ok. I'll open it up. These planes are dirt cheap up front. Of course there's the hidden costs. Anyone like Theo care to elaborate? Things like DOC; jet brokers puts this high at $1900/hr. Range? Can you get 3-4 1000 miles with any reserve? If no ones doing OH's, then part 91 can you, with intelligent inspections, just keep flying? What's the scheduled stuff cost?

There's a long and great thread on this subject.

Here's 1 but this isn't the one I'm thinking of.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=88834&hilit=citation

My understanding is that you can't run these engines past TBO because they are a turbo-fan. you can run a turbo prop past its recommended TBO if it is operated Part 91.

I am hoping I am wrong on this - so someone please tell me such.

-jason

Cannot run a turbojet or fan over tbo. I was looking at a timed out one a while back and researched this.

A buddy just had a 410k hot section (both) on an Ultra....keep this in mind

Mike

Research phase inspections. Phase 1-5 are about 40k, cant remember the spacing on these but lets say its every 4 or 5 yrs for all phases.

Other than that they seem pretty solid birds.

Hots seem to be 80-200 a side and no one everhauls these anymore, used engines are 100-200 a piece. Overhauls about 250-300 a side.

TR is the guy to ask, my memory is foggy from this due diligence.

Obviously got to pay for a corp hangar, insurance is 5-10k, burns 165 an hour.

Sam,

If you're interested in these airplanes, I'd recommend talking with a shop that has experience with them. There are variants including the Sierra modified ones (for more $ and much better performance akin to the Bravo). They're easy to fly and built like a tank, but purchase price is a small piece of the equation - everything will be costly to maintain, run and replace.

Although they remain some of the best/safest airframes ever designed and built, operating one of the original Cessna Citation 500/501 (or any of the earlier variants) with the P&WC JT15D-X turbofan engines can sometimes become a lesson in economics - in particularly their higher fuel burns and ultimately the JT15D O/H costs. Obviously, it’s a given that the “older” technology of these particular turbofan engines cannot compete with the newest engine technology that is currently available (i.e. P&WC PW600, Williams Int’l FJ44, GE/Honda HF120, etc.), of which were specifically designed and developed for the LJ market. I think that this is why Sierra has been successful in its re-engine programs for the legacy Citations - IMO.

The 501 is a great aircraft, with impressive payload and fairly decent range, dispatch and mission capabilities. If you want to discuss specific Phase Inspections, send me a PM.

Yes the google makes the original engines appear to be the weak link. HT blade corrosion appears to be a biggy, whatever HT Blades are.Still could be interesting as an entry level bird. Is that 165 gals/hr? Ouch. Cruise at about 350kts? How many hrs?

Guys, this is not true. Who spreads this misinformation around? Engine O/H is NOT mandatory. If you have good engine component time and cycles remaining, just hot section them and keep flying. Of course, don't assume you can buy a jet with high time engines and just keep running them. You need to research the life limited components (clearly laid out on the cesscom/sierracom), and know that not many people are hot sectioning these engines. The couple companies who are, are not doing many, and they seem to like to stick it to the customer. I guess they figure since they no longer have the volume, they have to screw the few guys to cover overhead. I won't name names here because it is not professional. $400k for hot sections is probably a fish story, but $100k for both is not unheard of. While this is supposed to be just an 'inspection,' it rarely seems to be.

I do 1000-1100nm regularly. Recently did an over 1000 nm flight with an average 30 knot headwind and landed with about 900lbs.

Its the perfect 4 person + bags 1000 nm jet.

There is no better value in general aviation right now. I have owned a dozen types of airplanes and I have never been happier than I am with the 500/501.

In my plane I flight plan 1,100 pph (165 gallons) for the first hour and 750pph (110 gallons) for each hour after that.

Here is a real world just over 1,000 nm flight in the 500 with an average 22 knot headwind at FL410. I departed LA VFR and picked up my IFR over PSP at 17,500. 3.5 hours flight time burned a total of 2,900 lbs of fuel for a block average of 123 GPH. I could have done a little better than that, but I had to stay at 17,500 for a while before getting my IFR (Still worked out better than taking the SID out of LA)

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FWR ... /KPSP/KUVA

I also fly it back and forth between LA and Vegas VFR direct at 16,5 or 17,5. Operate it like a turboprop with the power and fuel flow pulled back to 300 knots. Oh, except that it's quiet and smooth jet comfort unlike a turboprop!

$5m liability and ~half mil hull run under $6,000 per year.

I have my DOC somewhere around $1200 per flight hour, but I have been doing a lot of upgrades to the jet.

full fuel payload is around 1750 lbs but limited to 1500 by zero fuel weight.

The planes are rock solid reliable. The couple minor issues I have had in the past 8 months and 250+ hours, we have found serviceable parts or exchange/overhauls for a fraction of the Cessna price. Very reasonable stuff.

Hard to beat a 501 considering the numbers TR is posting. 125 GPH with a 325 knot cruise, 41k ft ability, and only $6k per year for $500k insurance and $5M liability is a deal. $1,200 per hour is about on par with a plane like a Duke when you consider the speed difference.

Once you fly a jet it is hard to fly something with a prop for any distance. If you want a big cabin and short field performance you buy a King Air 200 or PC12 for single and deal with the slower speeds, higher workload, louder cabin, etc. With the jet you climb faster and smoother in clean air up high. Everything is numbers and there really is no skill involved - just procedures. Balanced field and climb gradients for engine out procedures along with speed management and you really are good to go. I wish I could afford a 501. Great airplane. I think TR has found the sweet spot for a 4 person and full fuel airplane at a "reasonable" price.

Why the 4 person limitation? The cabin looks like it could sit more comfortably and 1,500 lbs. payload should allow more than 4 unless they're rather large or bring lots of bags...

I think those 400 hots are real, its a good buddy and he doesnt bs.

Anyways, tr is on the right track here. You cant ignore the life limited stuff which is expensive for blades.

Great airplane, probably get one if the eclipse burns me out.

Mike

You're hurting my eyes here. Back to researching, who said a jet was not on the cards......

You wont go back, jets rock