banner
banner

29 Mar 2024, 02:12 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 710 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43 ... 48  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2019, 13:32 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 8409
Post Likes: +3662
Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:
How do you comply with 91.409?

FAR 91.409(f)(3):

(3) A current inspection program recommended by the manufacturer.

If the manufacturer plan doesn't require calendar inspections, then you don't need to do them.

Mike C.


As far as I know, all mfr plans will have a calendar element. Do you have an example of one that does not?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2019, 22:51 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23615
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
As far as I know, all mfr plans will have a calendar element. Do you have an example of one that does not?

Merlins and Commanders have been claimed to not, at least not an inspection timed as often as 1 year.

I've not seen the inspection program personally to verify this.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 14:15 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5522
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
This is a quote from the Commander forum via member there who spoke to Commander Aircraft a few years ago in regards to the "on condition" inspections:

Gary Krommer of Commander-Aero and I have had a discussion in the background
and I need to clarify my statement.

Let me quote Gary here: "...all turbine Commanders fall under 91.409f(3).
Rockwell created a Phase Inspection Program for all early turbines. Consists
of 11 Phases which have to be completed in a 100 hour cycle. You are not
required to comply with all the time items that you do on the 690, such as
12/15 year inspections, 5 year landing gear, ETC, ETC. Hartzell propellers
follow overhaul requirements (5 year/3000 hours). Ham. Standard (no overhaul
requirements)."


I don't have the phase inspection manual myself, so can't reference it specifically. I should buy it from Commander Aero, but just never really saw the need as I'm not an A&P.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 14:48 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23615
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Let me quote Gary here: "...all turbine Commanders fall under 91.409f(3). Rockwell created a Phase Inspection Program for all early turbines. Consists of 11 Phases which have to be completed in a 100 hour cycle. You are not required to comply with all the time items that you do on the 690, such as 12/15 year inspections, 5 year landing gear, ETC, ETC. Hartzell propellers follow overhaul requirements (5 year/3000 hours). Ham. Standard (no overhaul requirements)."

As long as the inspection program doesn't have calendar time intervals, then it is all hour based.

I was recently given a Merlin inspection program document. No calendar items, so it goes only by hours.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 16:07 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/09/09
Posts: 4573
Post Likes: +3298
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
Username Protected wrote:
I was recently given a Merlin inspection program document. No calendar items, so it goes only by hours.

Mike C.


I have always understood that ABCD inspection have an hourly requirement and if the hours are not flown you have to do them once a year.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 16:25 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23615
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I have always understood that ABCD inspection have an hourly requirement and if the hours are not flown you have to do them once a year.

Only if the inspection program actually says so.

There's no regulatory basis for saying the plane has to be looked at every year when under an inspection program under 91.409(f)(3).

Let's follow the language:

§ 91.409 Inspections.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had - [an annual inspection]
...
(c) Paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section do not apply to -
...
(3) An aircraft subject to the requirements of paragraph (d) or (e) of this section
...
(e)... No person may operate a ... turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplane ... unless the airplane ..., including the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, appliances, survival equipment, and emergency equipment, is inspected in accordance with an inspection program selected under the provisions of paragraph (f) of this section
...
(f)...The registered owner or operator of each airplane ... described in paragraph (e) of this section must select, identify in the aircraft maintenance records, and use one of the following programs for the inspection of the aircraft:
...
(3) A current inspection program recommended by the manufacturer.


Got all that?

It says, no annual if you are under an inspection program.

If the program doesn't have calendar intervals, then you don't have calendar intervals, period.

I think you have confused the option for a progressive inspection under 91.409(d). That can be applied to piston aircraft, and it states:

The frequency and detail of the progressive inspection shall provide for the complete inspection of the aircraft within each 12 calendar months

But this doesn't apply to 91.409(e) aircraft such as multiengine turboprops.

Oddly enough, I think the 91.409(e) rule was because manufacturers wanted to REDUCE the maintenance burden on their products to be less than a 1 year inspection, but lately it has been more of a hammer to force more expensive and exhaustive inspections.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 16:43 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 1589
Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
Username Protected wrote:
I have always understood that ABCD inspection have an hourly requirement and if the hours are not flown you have to do them once a year.

Only if the inspection program actually says so.

There's no regulatory basis for saying the plane has to be looked at every year when under an inspection program under 91.409(f)(3).

Let's follow the language:

§ 91.409 Inspections.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had - [an annual inspection]
...
(c) Paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section do not apply to -
...
(3) An aircraft subject to the requirements of paragraph (d) or (e) of this section
...
(e)... No person may operate a ... turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplane ... unless the airplane ..., including the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, appliances, survival equipment, and emergency equipment, is inspected in accordance with an inspection program selected under the provisions of paragraph (f) of this section
...
(f)...The registered owner or operator of each airplane ... described in paragraph (e) of this section must select, identify in the aircraft maintenance records, and use one of the following programs for the inspection of the aircraft:
...
(3) A current inspection program recommended by the manufacturer.


Got all that?

It says, no annual if you are under an inspection program.

If the program doesn't have calendar intervals, then you don't have calendar intervals, period.

I think you have confused the option for a progressive inspection under 91.409(d). That can be applied to piston aircraft, and it states:

The frequency and detail of the progressive inspection shall provide for the complete inspection of the aircraft within each 12 calendar months

But this doesn't apply to 91.409(e) aircraft such as multiengine turboprops.

Oddly enough, I think the 91.409(e) rule was because manufacturers wanted to REDUCE the maintenance burden on their products to be less than a 1 year inspection, but lately it has been more of a hammer to force more expensive and exhaustive inspections.

Mike C.


Now If there were a twin turbine that didn't have calendar inspections AND no onerous hourly ADs......

Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 16:46 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5522
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:

Now If there were a twin turbine that didn't have calendar inspections AND no onerous hourly ADs......


There is - the antique Commander 680T/V/W ;)

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 16:49 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/03/10
Posts: 1562
Post Likes: +1781
Company: D&M Leasing Houston
Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: CitationV/C180
Adam, I'd have long thrown in the towel by now if I were you. I have no idea where you get the kind of understanding and patience you have. We both bought our planes around the same time and the experiences couldn't be any more opposite. I hope this is it for you and that you finally get to enjoy the turbine step up. the bright spot is the wealth of knowledge and parts sourcing you have amassed. Maybe you can monetize that and offset some of your time!


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 16:58 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 1589
Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
Username Protected wrote:

Now If there were a twin turbine that didn't have calendar inspections AND no onerous hourly ADs......


There is - the antique Commander 680T/V/W ;)


Get her sorted and I'll take her off your hands!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 17:06 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5522
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
Adam, I'd have long thrown in the towel by now if I were you. I have no idea where you get the kind of understanding and patience you have. We both bought our planes around the same time and the experiences couldn't be any more opposite. I hope this is it for you and that you finally get to enjoy the turbine step up. the bright spot is the wealth of knowledge and parts sourcing you have amassed. Maybe you can monetize that and offset some of your time!


Believe me, it has been frustrating. But what can you do? Right now, if I wanted to walk away, I'd have to part it out and get at best 50% of the value of it (unless you want to be in the parts business and sit on inventory for 20 years). By spending the last bit of money, I will protect her value compared to selling engines and avionics. Also, if I had walked away, what other plane could I have gotten that would not also face panel, interior and mechanical work immediately? This one has all that panel work done, interior etc.

The other thing is, out of all the other facilities I've ever used in aviation (except one), they've all been of the type that:

Communicates badly.
Take 3x as long as they say.

Examples:
My panel upgrade was scheduled for 2 months - took 10 months.
My engine overhauls scheduled for 2 months - took 6 months (and then had to be sent back for another 3 months because they made metal on first test flight - both of them).
Etc, etc.

Not a good track record, I know. Maybe I've made bad choices and used the wrong shops, but I want to make clear that all the places I've used, have come highly recommended by people. I didn't just pick them out of the blue. Just hasn't been the case they lived up to it for me. I'm happy to hear your experiences seem to have been better than mine. Now I'm trying a new approach - the factory service center, to see if that's better.

James, where do you service your MU-2? Factory shop or a mom-and-pop?

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Last edited on 14 Jan 2019, 17:45, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 17:42 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23615
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Now I'm trying a new approach - the factory service center, to see if that's better.

That comes with its own set of problems. Usually, the factory service center is stringent about their house rules when it comes to what "must" be done, and what "passes" inspection. They also charge more per hour typically.

Quote:
James, where do you service your MU-2? Factory shop or a mom-and-pop?

James and I both use a small outfit in TN. Basically 3 people, main man, assistant mechanic, and office manager. It is the opposite end of the factory service center spectrum.

I have used the Mitsubishi owned service center in Tulsa. Pretty decent shop. The aim to get all routine work done in a week, fly in Monday morning, fly out Friday evening. And they usually do.

I went with the TN shop due to proximity, lower cost, and more flexibility. Been very good so far.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 17:46 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5522
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Double post.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Last edited on 14 Jan 2019, 18:16, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 17:52 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5522
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
James and I both use a small outfit in TN. Basically 3 people, main man, assistant mechanic, and office manager. It is the opposite end of the factory service center spectrum.

I have used the Mitsubishi owned service center in Tulsa. Pretty decent shop. The aim to get all routine work done in a week, fly in Monday morning, fly out Friday evening. And they usually do.

I went with the TN shop due to proximity, lower cost, and more flexibility. Been very good so far.

Mike C.


That's the dream scenario. But I think that the type pf delays etc I've encountered throughout my owner career, are closer to the norm. Almost all aircraft owners I meet seem to have a lot of problems of this kind - deadlines not met, extra costs, slow progress, bad communication etc.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 17:55 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 11885
Post Likes: +2848
Company: Looking
Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
Username Protected wrote:
James and I both use a small outfit in TN. Basically 3 people, main man, assistant mechanic, and office manager. It is the opposite end of the factory service center spectrum.


Which one? I visited a few and lived next to one for a couple of years.

Tim


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 710 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43 ... 48  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.tat-85x100.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.tempest.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.