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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 17:55 
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Adam, do you have the Bendix FGS-70 AP in your Commander?


I believe he has the Honeywell H-14 (As in Honeywell before it merged with Sperry).

I've never seen the FGS-70 in anything besides the earlier Citation 500.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 01:10 
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How much does not having the outboard tanks limit the kind of flights you make?

Tim


It's a bit limiting. 237gal, which means about 3.6hrs until dry. I like to be on the ground after about 2-2.5hrs.

Tarver - I have the an ancient H-14.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 07:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Adam, do you have the Bendix FGS-70 AP in your Commander?


I believe he has the Honeywell H-14 (As in Honeywell before it merged with Sperry).

I've never seen the FGS-70 in anything besides the earlier Citation 500.


I believe Boeing used the FGS-70 in early 747's? Not positive, but was told that during 500 ground school 25 years ago

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 08:57 
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Username Protected wrote:

I believe he has the Honeywell H-14 (As in Honeywell before it merged with Sperry).

I've never seen the FGS-70 in anything besides the earlier Citation 500.


I believe Boeing used the FGS-70 in early 747's? Not positive, but was told that during 500 ground school 25 years ago


I believe you are right, but I don't think many actually got fitted.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 09:52 
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i liked that flight director when it worked correctly! hated the rest of the stuff in the early 500's.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 15:39 
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What's the latest? :shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 16:21 
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What's the latest? :shrug:


The latest is that I'm considering heavy medication! :bugeye:

Plane got dropped off at service center just before xmas after all the troubles I've had with my previous mechanic. The estimate was kind of sobering and a lot of stuff that had already been done now has to be validated and signed off all over again, which is really annoying. One of the most annoying ones is the spray test for the nozzles which I had done less than 40hrs ago. But because the previous mechanic has that paperwork and we're not in communication, I might have to do them over again unless I can get the test shop to send me verification of that. Annoying to have to pay $3.2K for something that's already been done.

Biggest unexpected item was that service center had a different cycle count than the one the previous mechanic and I had adhered to, which now is resulting in the left engine being cycled out on the 3rd turbine wheel. I asked them to recount their cycle count as thoroughly as possible, and it seems they're correct and the numbers I had were wrong. So engine will have to be sent out and that 3rd wheel replaced. I've found a good used wheel and a shop that can do it for a fair price, but It's not a cost I had anticipated right now. And with the addition of all the other stuff, it's more than I'd hoped for.

My prop SB thing is not mandatory, but was quoted as full overhaul - I spoke about it in this thread:

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=161755&view=unread#unread

Just unfortunate that all this is coming when I have a lot of investment costs associated with a new business startup and really don't have the money to spare. But we'll get through this too, one way or the other.

Just for posterity for TPE331 owners:

You're looking at about $2-3/cycle on a used wheel. The used 3rd stage with 1200 cycles on it will set me back about $2800. The stator might need some work, the burner can and plenum needs NDTing (and probably some welding) when they open them up and the turbine bearing and nut probably needs replacing. Total estimated costs around $10-15K to change a wheel with the work. Then the cost of swinging the engine, shipping it and rigging it on airframe is on top of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 16:36 
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Wow Adam, you spent the money and tons of your time and you haven’t gotten much flying time from it. I know there is no going back but do you still think it’ll all be worth it?

My net worth is highly debatable but I’m sure even in the most optimistic version my airplane grossly exceeds 5%. I don’t care, it moved my business forward and it created way more value than it took away.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 17:01 
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Wow Adam, you spent the money and tons of your time and you haven’t gotten much flying time from it. I know there is no going back but do you still think it’ll all be worth it?


No, it won't financially. I will not get my money back when I sell it. But I still think overall it's acceptable as it got me into turbines for not a ton of money - I'm probably $350K into it now with a new panel and new interior. I doubt I could get much more than $275K for her? When I need to cheer myself up I think of the engine overhaul I did on my Aerostar. They cost $140K with the accompanying annual and that money was just straight down the drain - you get almost nothing of it back come selling time. This airplane is still besting that number by a little bit. ;)

Now, the time aspect of it is the part that hurts the most. Now 4 years later I've not flown her that much and that's 4 years gone from my total flying time. I now see that it does make sense to finance planes and get to the flying part quicker - I didn't in the past. We only have so many years of qualifying for a medical. I don't think I'll buy a fixer-upper again.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 17:18 
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Would you have the same amount invested if you fixed everything as soon as you bought it vs spreading over 4 yrs?

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 17:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Would you have the same amount invested if you fixed everything as soon as you bought it vs spreading over 4 yrs?


In hindsight I should have just gone to a service center from start and bit the bullet. I could have saved a lot by not using a mechanic who didn't do what he was supposed to and dragged his feet for years. But hindsight is 20/20. I had used that same mechanic for years at this point, and he was highly recommended in the Commander world. Think he got hard up and started cutting corners and told you fairytales to keep you sweet. Maybe he always did and we just didn't see it.

Finding the right and honest maintenance is the most important part of aircraft ownership.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 18:10 
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Amen Adam. Hope things straighten out and you get to start flying that wonderful bird soon. We continued to use a shop we had years of experience with and they've done well for us. Hopefully, your new folks will do the same.

I'll update our recent work in the flying the C90 thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 18:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Finding the right and honest maintenance is the most important part of aircraft ownership.

Adam,

I always appreciate your candid reports.

You are absolutely correct about the importance of a good relationship with a top shop.

BEFORE I bought my 421, I made a trip to Defiance, OH to visit my prospective maintenance shop, TAS Aviation, to ensure that TAS deserved its reputation and that I would be welcomed into their fold.

BEFORE I bought my King Air 350, I made a trip to North Adams, MA to visit my prospective maintenance shop, Turboprop East, to ensure that it deserved its reputation and that I would be welcomed into the fold.

A good shop increases the comfort level and reduces the worry as they maintain and improve your plane. I hope you are on the right path with your new shop.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 19:15 
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I now see that it does make sense to finance planes and get to the flying part quicker - I didn't in the past. We only have so many years of qualifying for a medical. I don't think I'll buy a fixer-upper again.



Yeah, I got to that understanding about 2-1/2 years ago.

Prior, I had owned two aircraft, a 1965 and a 1975. Both cash purchases. The first was a labor of love, and that nugget actually polished up really nicely. I didn't get my money back, but I did really enjoy bringing it up to its full potential. You can do that on a Cherokee 180 and not get hurt too bad. They're reliable when properly cared for (and put right after 40 years). Also a sweet and enjoyable ride, when you know it's going to get there and back, in nice smelling new leather and pretty paint.

My second was a Seneca II and I learned that it was a million dollar airplane. Things I thought I could handle from renovating the Cherokee turned into far more complex, time consuming and expensive projects. Lots of systems on a turbocharged FIKI twin, and buying it into a falling economy left me pretty well glued to what I thought was a reasonable deal and I went way under on it. I learned some things there, for sure. And as committed to doing everything right as I am, I still missed stuff I didn't know about. I did like flying it, but it was a big undertaking and quite a deep hole into which much money was poured.

My third, I decided to go into something much newer, took advantage of low interest rates and bought it right. I've had to put more money into things than I expected, but at least, it has been maintainable. The shop is honest and thorough. Caught some things the prior shop (also a very well reputed shop) missed on the first annual, and the second annual came with a couple of expensive exhaust/turbo surprises. But it, like I said, it has spent less time in the shop.

To do over again, depending on my economic situation, I'd probably buy something 2-5 years old, finance it and let it go in a few years.

You pay, one way or the other, period. There are no cheap airplanes and the market is efficiently priced. Sometimes, you can pay in time and effort, such as on older planes if you can do research, scrounge parts, maybe even help swinging wrenches. But pay, you will.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbine step up?
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 20:07 
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You pay, one way or the other, period. There are no cheap airplanes and the market is efficiently priced. Sometimes, you can pay in time and effort, such as on older planes if you can do research, scrounge parts, maybe even help swinging wrenches. But pay, you will.


You're not wrong, Larry. There might be a few odd C185's/Cubs/PC12's out there that someone made a little bit of money on, but for most of us, owning aircraft is something that will cost a lot of money. Either up front, or as you go. There are very few shortcuts to be had. Like so many else I thought I could kind of cheat the system a bit, but after owning 3 airplanes I can tell there is no cheating it... Pay now or later. ;)

I sometimes wonder, if I'd saved all that money I spent on aircrafts over the last 10 years, fixing them, upgrading panels, overhauling engines, I'd probably be sitting in that P180 by now. But you can't think like that - the journey here has been half the fun. And built up the skillset you have now, knowing how to skin a cat somewhat.

On the subject of buying fixer-uppers: what I would still consider in the future (if I ever bought another plane), is to perhaps get into one of the earlier models in any given series and one that needs some avionics updates. There seems to be - on aircraft say maybe less than 30 years old - a sweet spot where you can get most of the performance of the later models, but without the headaches of integrated avionics and very costly ADS-B upgrades. Case in point are the early CJ's where you can basically stick a G650 in there and be done, which is not possible once they got ProLine and stuff. They go just as fast and fly just as high as the M2. Same for the early P180's etc.

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