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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 07:37 
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I'm just trying to learn to and going through this like I'm doing really helps me. I'm sure there will be folks that have excellent observations to consider and it really helps me think through this stuff. Didn't take it negatively at all.


This reminded me of the theory that as soon as you learn something, you should try to teach/explain it to another. Really helps cement it in your own head.

Great thread. Need to prep for how I will spend my lottery winnings anyhow.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 09:40 
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Someone asked me about coffin's corner at FL430 in this plane. Anyone have any insight?
Thx

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 10:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
This reminded me of the theory that as soon as you learn something, you should try to teach/explain it to another. Really helps cement it in your own head.


This is so true. I was also taught that when somebody is trying to explain something to a person and is having difficulty and resorts to saying, "It is just to difficult for you to be able to understand." Really doesn't know his subject matter. And I have seen the most complex things explained well. And when a person cannot, he doesn't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 10:28 
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The challenge of learning something, especially for the oral exam that will be part of this type rating is two fold. It's one thing to understand something, but something completely different to know it well enough to convey that through conversation. Throw in a little checkride-itis and your knowledge base goes down about 30% from what I've seen. Always better to be over prepared than underprepared.

As far as coffin corner at 430, I've never been to 430 in the II, so I don't know specifically. I'll look at the charts and see what TAS/IAS later at work.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 11:39 
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Let me plot the trend here:

2016 'Flying the Lear 60' by Dave
2018 'Flying the G5' by Dave

:-)

Thanks for taking us along for the ride.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 11:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Let me plot the trend here:

2016 'Flying the Lear 60' by Dave
2018 'Flying the G5' by Dave

:-)

Thanks for taking us along for the ride.


Wow Florian! I think you have a lot higher opinion of me than I do of myself :)
I'm truly humbled. (head looking down at shoes while sliding them around on floor).

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 11:52 
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Talked to Dick Bacon this morning about the low usage LOA that extends inspection life of these planes: he was very helpful! He has gotten 91 of these issued and is close to becoming and ODA which will allow his firm to sign them off in the future. That being said, Dallas FSDO seems to depend on the inspector he get now and these don't transfer. So He'd have to get local approval until he can do that. As Allen said, $12,500 and some expenses to do. $5,000 discount to transfer an existing LOA. So, if I move a plane now that would be subject to an inspection now, I have a risk that will have to be done until the new LOA gets approved. Interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 12:08 
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Talked to Dick Bacon this morning about the low usage LOA that extends inspection life of these planes: he was very helpful! He has gotten 91 of these issued and is close to becoming and ODA which will allow his firm to sign them off in the future. That being said, Dallas FSDO seems to depend on the inspector he get now and these don't transfer. So He'd have to get local approval until he can do that. As Allen said, $12,500 and some expenses to do. $5,000 discount to transfer an existing LOA. So, if I move a plane now that would be subject to an inspection now, I have a risk that will have to be done until the new LOA gets approved. Interesting.


Interesting gotcha when an aircraft on the low utilization program is sold and inspections immediately become due because it reverts to the standard Cessna inspection program.

It has implications for where such an aircraft is delivered at sale as the aircraft may not be legally flyable until inspections are done or the new owners low utilization program is approved. I wonder what ferry permits can be obtained for this situation.

You could use your prepurchase inspection to get inspections due on sale completed.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 12:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
Let me plot the trend here:

2016 'Flying the Lear 60' by Dave
2018 'Flying the G5' by Dave

:-)

Thanks for taking us along for the ride.


Wow Florian! I think you have a lot higher opinion of me than I do of myself :)
I'm truly humbled. (head looking down at shoes while sliding them around on floor).


I own a house and some land. I have to believe that the RE market takes off again :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 12:25 
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Allen, when you are the sole pilot in your jet, are you wearing the O2 mask all the time at the higher levels?


You must if operating single pilot above FL350. I don't think anyone would admit to doing otherwise ....

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 12:38 
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Username Protected wrote:

Interesting gotcha when an aircraft on the low utilization program is sold and inspections immediately become due because it reverts to the standard Cessna inspection program.

It has implications for where such an aircraft is delivered at sale as the aircraft may not be legally flyable until inspections are done or the new owners low utilization program is approved. I wonder what ferry permits can be obtained for this situation.

You could use your prepurchase inspection to get inspections due on sale completed.


Dick said he can usually do a transfer pretty quickly; so, we're thinking along the same lines--using the inspection period to lay the ground work and having some provision for transferring the LOA. Once he can sign off, it would be much more assured.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 16:52 
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Checking the Citation II's on flightaware, it seems most guys are flying them mid to high 30's

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttyp ... =filed_ete

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 16:57 
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Checking the Citation II's on flightaware, it seems most guys are flying them mid to high 30's

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttyp ... =filed_ete


Good data point, although I'm not sure that will tell you if 430 is a useful option for a 2-3 times/year absolute max range flight or if it's just not workable.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 17:09 
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Here's what the charts say at FL 430. Once again, I would never take one up this high, not sure it would make it, but the book says it will.

11,000 # (They don't list long range cruise number over 11k)
ISA -56
Fuel Flow - 723 (max thrust), 604 (long range cruise)
IAS/TAS - 167/343 - 147/305

47.4nm/100#fuel/ 50.4nm/100#fuel

Coffin corner is a lounge at this point. If you got to 430 and tried to pull the power back to LRC, I think the controllers would go on strike. :rofl:

Theoretically, you have 5000# of fuel. First hour burn would be considerably more than cruise, but let's just say you could eek out 1900 miles. This is completely unheard of from an operator's perspective, but on paper it works. This airplane was made when planes couldn't make book numbers. It seems that nowadays, planes surpass book numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2014, 17:13 
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Looking at the charts I have, the TAS really drops from FL370 to FL430. Of course FF also drops, but from what I can see, it might be as effective to stay at FL370 and reduce power a bit. A friend got the engine power charts and it seems a bit like my KA. FL300 is the ceiling, but the plane takes forever to climb that high and it's power is greatly reduced up there. I'll look at the power curve when I get a chance, but am not real optimistic about FL430 unless there are unusual conditions. It would certainly involve a step climb if the CII is heavy. I don't even have long range cruise numbers there until it's down to 11,000 pounds. With the gross weight increase to 14,100 (which is what we're looking at), that could be a couple hours into a flight. And, that's to climb at 500 fpm. At max cruise thrust, FL430 what I have shows TAS of 335 at 12,000 pounds using 718 pph. .4444 miles per pound. At FL 370; 368 knots using 989 or .372 miles per pound. However, cruise climb chart doesn't show how much longer it takes to get up there with the step climb.

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