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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 21:43 
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Excellent catch. We should have been landing flaps at 1000 agl. I was cheating thinking was going around. Didn’t want all that drag if we were going around anyway. My bad. AC91-79A


That type of non-standard cheat will bite you someday.

Go around is not the time to be thinking do you do FLAPS-GEAR-FLAPS or GEAR-FLAPS.

Also at Vref+10 flaps 15 the engine is spooled down more then you would like.

Get one SOP and stick with it, especially for hard IMC approaches.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 22:48 
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Allen,

Thats a great point regarding spool and drag. Interestingly, I haven’t found the lag to be as much of an issue as I expected coming from pistons. Speed control has been intuitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 22:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think we calculated 3,900’ required.

That was going to be my next question.

I'd love to see a full end to end computation of that number given your inputs of weight, winds, altitude, temperature, flap setting, and runway condition.

Mike C.


Here you go.

Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 23:00 
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Username Protected wrote:

Excellent catch. We should have been landing flaps at 1000 agl. I was cheating thinking was going around. Didn’t want all that drag if we were going around anyway. My bad. AC91-79A


That type of non-standard cheat will bite you someday.

Go around is not the time to be thinking do you do FLAPS-GEAR-FLAPS or GEAR-FLAPS.

Also at Vref+10 flaps 15 the engine is spooled down more then you would like.

Get one SOP and stick with it, especially for hard IMC approaches.


Our configuration was more typical of non precision and single engine ILS. Note we both mentiioned flaps multiple times so we were very aware of their position. Your point about having to think about flaps-gear-flap or gear-flap is fair. Especially single pilot.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 23:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
Here you go.

What would it have been for dry clear runway?

What app does the computation?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 23:11 
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Allen,

Thats a great point regarding spool and drag. Interestingly, I haven’t found the lag to be as much of an issue as I expected coming from pistons. Speed control has been intuitive.


You are flying a 1980s era turbojet. Spool up time is not as bad as 1960s & 1970s era turbojets. But not as good as a 2000 era FJ44.

If you keep the aircraft within its profile it should not be an issue. Just be aware the more you cheat, the more you move into test pilot corners of the performance envelope.

Fly a 510 or FADEC FJ44 and you may find it too easy for your tastes.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 23:13 
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Username Protected wrote:

Our configuration was more typical of non precision and single engine ILS.


I doubt you would be doing an approach into those conditions with either of those configurations.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 23:14 
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In my CJ I was taught to set landing flaps once runway is assured. FAF is to far out in my opinion.

Does FS teach at FAF in CJ's


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 23:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Here you go.

What would it have been for dry clear runway?

What app does the computation?

Mike C.


Remember TR’s are not accounted for in these calcs...

The app is APG iPreFlight

https://www.flyapg.com/

Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 01:39 
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In my CJ I was taught to set landing flaps once runway is assured. FAF is to far out in my opinion.

Does FS teach at FAF in CJ's


Gear down and flaps to land at FAF for a precision approach or LNAV/VNAV or LPV. Especially in IMC.

You can’t maintain a stabilized approach to touchdown if you are changing flaps below 500’. And deploying landing flaps can balloon you up, as you probably saw doing CTZl approaches.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 02:16 
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Last edited on 19 Jan 2018, 06:19, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 03:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
In my CJ I was taught to set landing flaps once runway is assured. FAF is to far out in my opinion.

Does FS teach at FAF in CJ's


Here u go.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 07:34 
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In my CJ I was taught to set landing flaps once runway is assured. FAF is to far out in my opinion.

Does FS teach at FAF in CJ's


Here u go.


Seems like they simply imply landing flaps at DH. How much difference is there in the Flight configuration when you throw in landing flaps? Mark is that why you had JJ on the instruments (ASI) so hard after visual was made? And how much difference is there in spool up times between the 2 drag configurations?

I think there was a lot of wisdom in having a good copilot on this trip. It demonstrates a lot of forethought and humility. It also realizes that many times 2 is better equipped than one. If you have the right second.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 07:40 
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Use the speed brakes until 50’ to stay at Vref while getting a higher decent rate and moving the plane to a lower GP.

It is an advanced maneuver and takes a good feel of the plane to keep the descent path stable as you put the speed brakes out and stow them before you flare.


Interesting procedure. So I assume you mean steepen your glideslope to cross threshold at same reference point but positioning the plane to land before the touchdown landing points? Assume this would be more useful on a visual approach?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 08:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Seems like they simply imply landing flaps at DH.


The diagram Vann posted above shows flaps to LAND at DH only when single engine.

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