28 Mar 2024, 10:11 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 17:06 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: For the 550 I have flown:
3 positions
Flaps up Flaps Approach Landing Flaps
525 CJs have an additional flap setting of GROUND.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 17:09 |
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Joined: 03/09/13 Posts: 910 Post Likes: +449 Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
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Username Protected wrote: For the 550 I have flown:
3 positions
Flaps up Flaps Approach Landing Flaps
525 CJs have an additional flap setting of GROUND.
Which also deploys speed brakes.
Andrew
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 17:10 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Define what you mean by reference point.
This is how you move the plane on approach from a 3 degree GP pointed to land at the 1000’ mark to a 3 degree GP pointed to land at the numbers while maintaining Vref. This is what Mark described he did by pointing the nose at the numbers, that increased airspeed, lost Vref, and then floated in the flare about 100’ for every knot above Vref, which negated the effort of trying to land short.
Speed brakes is a tool to use during non-standard approaches which some airports require.
Hi Allen. By "reference point" I would mean ones intended point of crossing the threshold at a certain altitude at a certain speed. Vref. Thanks for pointing out the FSI diagram was OEI at the DH.
If you cross the threshold at 50’ to land at the 1000 foot marks on a 3 degree GP then you need to cross the threshold lower then that to land on the numbers on a 3 degree GP.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 18:07 |
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Joined: 08/05/11 Posts: 5303 Post Likes: +2423
Aircraft: BE-55
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Username Protected wrote: This is how you move the plane on approach from a 3 degree GP pointed to land at the 1000’ mark to a 3 degree GP pointed to land at the numbers while maintaining Vref. This is what Mark described he did by pointing the nose at the numbers, that increased airspeed, lost Vref, and then floated in the flare about 100’ for every knot above Vref, which negated the effort of trying to land short.
Speed brakes is a tool to use during non-standard approaches which some airports require.
Hi Allen. By "reference point" I would mean ones intended point of crossing the threshold at a certain altitude at a certain speed. Vref. Thanks for pointing out the FSI diagram was OEI at the DH.[/quote] If you cross the threshold at 50’ to land at the 1000 foot marks on a 3 degree GP then you need to cross the threshold lower then that to land on the numbers on a 3 degree GP.[/quote] Understood. But I think you were describing a maneuver with a GS greater than 3% where I assume you keep Vref by use of the speed brakes. Makes sense whereas if you push the nose over to hit the numbers your speed goes up and you float. So using the rule of "1 in 60" instead of being about 1350' 5 miles out you're at say 1800' for a 4 degree GS. At five miles to this would equate to roughly 720'/min ROD @ 2nm/min or 120kts.
_________________ “ Embrace the Suck”
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 18:32 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Understood. But I think you were describing a maneuver with a GS greater than 3% where I assume you keep Vref by use of the speed brakes. Makes sense whereas if you push the nose over to hit the numbers your speed goes up and you float. So using the rule of "1 in 60" instead of being about 1350' 5 miles out you're at say 1800' for a 4 degree GS. At five miles to this would equate to roughly 720'/min ROD @ 2nm/min or 120kts.
If I want a 4degree GP from 1800’ I can set the power to have a stabilized GP at Vref without the speed brakes. On Citations, speed brakes need to be retracted ny 50’. Landing with speed brakes is prohibited. What I described was how you do a duck under when on a 3 degree GP and want to move your landing point closer while staying at Vref and 3 degree GP. As I said it is an advanced maneuver for non-standard airports.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Jan 2018, 19:39 |
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Joined: 12/31/17 Posts: 935 Post Likes: +540 Location: KADS
Aircraft: C560, C340
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Username Protected wrote: Question about configuring landing flaps once you had the runway environment in sight and continuing to 100 Ft. It seems to me like that is not the time to be making configuration changes. On an approach to minimums, we are always fully configured for landing at the FAF so no changes have to take place after that. This is an Embraer Legacy though. Interested in your thoughts on this and why you do it that way. Maybe that's how all Citations do it? Just curious. Excellent catch. We should have been landing flaps at 1000 agl. I was cheating thinking was going around. Didn’t want all that drag if we were going around anyway. My bad. AC91-79A
I noticed it and thought I would not want to be making any configuration changes that late. You have realized the mistake. The problem with adding full flaps that late is that it will balloon you up if you are not carful. I fly an Ultra and the nice thing about having full flaps is the it allows you to have enough power to keep the engines and wing root hot.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 21 Jan 2018, 13:04 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13578 Post Likes: +10961 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: As long as the weather is above minimums for your arrival at KSAW, you’re golden. Have a good flight. Ya. Would hate to recreate that approach SP. no snow this time though.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 21 Jan 2018, 13:07 |
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Joined: 07/11/11 Posts: 2252 Post Likes: +2213 Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
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Username Protected wrote: Ok boyz. Today’s mission. KORD to KSAW noon CST. Single Pilot. Anybody in Chicago! Ha.
N90Z. Flying as Dotcom 2091. Trackable as N90Z One of these days, I'm going to take you up on these offers. It would be a blast.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 21 Jan 2018, 13:12 |
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Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13101 Post Likes: +6969
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I’ll be curious to learn how the braking action is at SAW. The ramp was an ice rink when we departed.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 21 Jan 2018, 13:22 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23612 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I’ll be curious to learn how the braking action is at SAW. The ramp was an ice rink when we departed. !SAW 01/137 SAW RWY 19 FICON 25 PRCT ICE SANDED 100FT WID OBSERVED AT 1801211014. 1801211014-1801221014 !SAW 01/136 SAW RWY 01 FICON 25 PRCT ICE SANDED 100FT WID OBSERVED AT 1801211013. 1801211013-1801221013 !SAW 01/134 SAW TWY ALL FICON ICE SCARIFIED 75FT WID AND SANDED 75FT WID OBSERVED AT 1801210011. 1801210011-1801220011 !SAW 01/135 SAW APRON ALL FICON ICE SANDED OBSERVED AT 1801210012. 1801210012-1801220012 !SAW 10/043 SAW APRON TERMINAL RAMP W 200FT WIP SN REMOVAL 1710271830-1804302359 !SAW 12/001 SAW APRON TERMINAL RAMP BTN TWY C AND TWY D CLSD 1712011439-1805012200 Where does one get braking action reports? (I don't need them... yet) Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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