BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 08:57

When it works out right, do you have to add power back in if you put in last flaps that far out or will the added drag slow you down to your landing speed without much power change?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 08:57

Username Protected wrote:

Use the speed brakes until 50’ to stay at Vref while getting a higher decent rate and moving the plane to a lower GP.

It is an advanced maneuver and takes a good feel of the plane to keep the descent path stable as you put the speed brakes out and stow them before you flare.

Interesting procedure. So I assume you mean steepen your glideslope to cross threshold at same reference point but positioning the plane to land before the touchdown landing points? Assume this would be more useful on a visual approach?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 09:06

Username Protected wrote:

When it works out right, do you have to add power back in if you put in last flaps that far out or will the added drag slow you down to your landing speed without much power change?

In a turbojet you dial in the throttle to give you the airspeed you want once on the glide path.

You are 160 - 170 KTS to the FAF. Gear down one dot before GP intercept. Flaps to land once airspeed below 160 KTS. Vref is 100 - 105 KTS. Adjust throttle to get there.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 10:29

My ILS approach profile for the Merlin is level power adjust to 180 clean, localizer alive first flaps, glide slope alive second flaps, one dot above intercept gear down then last flaps when runway is visible or 2 nm out. This continued addition of drag slows me down on schedule so that a slow walking back of the throttles is all that is needed coming over the threshold into the flare.

If this is not an ILS or just a visible it works out well with 10,7,5,2 DME as replacements for the ILS cues.

When done this way the Merlin basically flies itself.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 11:02

The Flight Safety illustration shows what Allen says, flaps to land at FAF for normal precision approach, flaps to land at DH for single engine.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 11:03

Penman, we're not talking (SE) about you ;-)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 11:09

Username Protected wrote:

In my CJ I was taught to set landing flaps once runway is assured. FAF is to far out in my opinion.

Does FS teach at FAF in CJ's

Here u go.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 11:50

Username Protected wrote:

When it works out right, do you have to add power back in if you put in last flaps that far out or will the added drag slow you down to your landing speed without much power change?

In a turbojet you dial in the throttle to give you the airspeed you want once on the glide path.

You are 160 - 170 KTS to the FAF. Gear down one dot before GP intercept. Flaps to land once airspeed below 160 KTS. Vref is 100 - 105 KTS. Adjust throttle to get there.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 11:57

Michael,

Look at the attachment Andrew Vann posted. Its all there.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 13:32

Do you guys do a VREF calculation each time or do you have a rule of thumb you use? We used to come up with VREF by taking a base number, which I forget now, and adding I think 3 knots for every 1000 pounds of fuel and 1 knot per person. So if our base number was say 105 and we had 3000 pounds of fuel and 5 people we’d use 119 knots VREF.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 15:28

Username Protected wrote:

Do you guys do a VREF calculation each time or do you have a rule of thumb you use? We used to come up with VREF by taking a base number, which I forget now, and adding I think 3 knots for every 1000 pounds of fuel and 1 knot per person. So if our base number was say 105 and we had 3000 pounds of fuel and 5 people we’d use 119 knots VREF.

Yep I use APG. But I also calculate with my own rule of thumb.

Takeoff - takeoff weight /100. Divide by 2, add 58 gives V2, subtract 5 for Vr. So it 10,000 lbs you get - 10,000/100 - 100/2 - 50+58=V2 108 Vr 103.

Landing - landing weight/100. Divide by 2, add 58 gives Vapp, subtract 7 for Vref.

I check that on every flight.

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 15:47

Username Protected wrote:

Yep I use APG. But I also calculate with my own rule of thumb.

Takeoff - takeoff weight /100. Divide by 2, add 58 gives V2, subtract 5 for Vr. So it 10,000 lbs you get - 10,000/100 - 100/2 - 50+58=V2 108 Vr 103.

Landing - landing weight/100. Divide by 2, add 58 gives Vapp, subtract 7 for Vref.

I check that on every flight.

Andrew

Huh?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 16:26

Username Protected wrote:

Michael,

Look at the attachment Andrew Vann posted. Its all there.

Was kinda unsure. In Andrews doc is shows landing flaps. I thought the Citation had 3 flap settings. 5, 15, 35.

Is landing flaps set to 15?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2018, 16:37

Username Protected wrote:

Define what you mean by reference point.

This is how you move the plane on approach from a 3 degree GP pointed to land at the 1000’ mark to a 3 degree GP pointed to land at the numbers while maintaining Vref. This is what Mark described he did by pointing the nose at the numbers, that increased airspeed, lost Vref, and then floated in the flare about 100’ for every knot above Vref, which negated the effort of trying to land short.

Speed brakes is a tool to use during non-standard approaches which some airports require.