BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 08:44

Username Protected wrote:

Had an experience worth mentioning. IMC departure off of 16 at KPWK. Clearance was to climb and maintain 3000. Left turn within 1/2 mile of the depature end. The turn was essentially a 270 degree turn direct OLINN.

What goes through my mind is the Wei Chen and the CJ-4 off of Burke accidents. I brief what is about to happen. Perfect setup for spatial disorientation.

I rotated...climbed to 400 feet and started turn while cleaning up and throttling back. As I leveled off i could feel the leans creeping in. Just amazing in that I knew what could happen and was prepared for it. Yet it still happened. Just thinking had I not thought about it...got caught off guard...been a bit distracted etc.

No pun intended but you have to be spatially aware. The reason we do CrashTalk is to think this stuff through.

You can almost guarantee you are going to get the 3000ft ceiling and sharp turn anywhere in Chicago airspace. We just had it last week out of Midway.
I was wondering how quickly I should start the turn (500 ft ?). I’m not even half the runway and I’m turning.
So neat to read how you thought it all through.
I like the 3000ft ceiling because it usually means that in my lowly plane I get direct destination as soon as we are clear of the Bravo.

Be careful out there.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 10:15

Username Protected wrote:

Had an experience worth mentioning. IMC departure off of 16 at KPWK. Clearance was to climb and maintain 3000. Left turn within 1/2 mile of the depature end. The turn was essentially a 270 degree turn direct OLINN.

What goes through my mind is the Wei Chen and the CJ-4 off of Burke accidents. I brief what is about to happen. Perfect setup for spatial disorientation.

I rotated...climbed to 400 feet and started turn while cleaning up and throttling back. As I leveled off i could feel the leans creeping in. Just amazing in that I knew what could happen and was prepared for it. Yet it still happened. Just thinking had I not thought about it...got caught off guard...been a bit distracted etc.

No pun intended but you have to be spatially aware. The reason we do CrashTalk is to think this stuff through.

Be careful out there.

Yep, I fly at night a lot and , think about this and have felt it like you did.

Add acceleration to the mix. My rule is not to turn till 500 and use the flight director. Having the G1000 flight director as big as it is definitely helps. The part about the acceleration is the bank angle for a std rate turn. I.E. going faster increases the bank angle.

You can see how even an experienced pilot could get “futzed up” by this if there were other factors, like illness, fatigue or a minor equipment failure being a distraction.

Off topic, and know you jet guys deal with this all the time; the other day I was coming down past 10,000 and had to pay attention to keep my speed under 250kias.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 13:52

Username Protected wrote:

Had an experience worth mentioning. IMC departure off of 16 at KPWK. Clearance was to climb and maintain 3000. Left turn within 1/2 mile of the depature end. The turn was essentially a 270 degree turn direct OLINN.

What goes through my mind is the Wei Chen and the CJ-4 off of Burke accidents. I brief what is about to happen. Perfect setup for spatial disorientation.

I rotated...climbed to 400 feet and started turn while cleaning up and throttling back. As I leveled off i could feel the leans creeping in. Just amazing in that I knew what could happen and was prepared for it. Yet it still happened. Just thinking had I not thought about it...got caught off guard...been a bit distracted etc.

No pun intended but you have to be spatially aware. The reason we do CrashTalk is to think this stuff through.

Be careful out there.

Yep. It still happens in the KA at times where I make a big turn while climbing and changing throttles. Like you, rely on flight director and cross check instruments. If AP is engaged, it's easier to manage.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 14:13

Regarding when to turn, if it's not on a SID or in the clearance or noise abatement procedure, using the altitude for a circling MDA will work. Regarding how steep to bank, 25 degrees or standard rate, whichever comes first.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 14:40

Username Protected wrote:

I believe that is a brochure marketing image, not an actual airplane in flight.

Did you notice anything else missing on it?

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 14:51

Username Protected wrote:

I believe that is a brochure marketing image, not an actual airplane in flight.

Did you notice anything else missing on it?

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 15:27

Username Protected wrote:

Regarding when to turn, if it's not on a SID or in the clearance or noise abatement procedure, using the altitude for a circling MDA will work. Regarding how steep to bank, 25 degrees or standard rate, whichever comes first.

In this case “when to turn” was somewhat dictated by the clearance of within 1/2 mile of departure end. The altitude you reach at that point is somewhat variable.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 15:51

Username Protected wrote:

Nose baggage door.

I think that’s there. It’s a photo of a photo so a bit grainy but I can see the door outline.

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 20:45

A CJ2 I fly has a NICAD battery. A couple cells went bad. Cost to replace a cell? $1k. 22 cells....holy schnikes! :bugeye:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 20:52

It’s nice to lease sometimes

Here are the keys, and BTW, the battery needs to be fixed.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 21:20

Username Protected wrote:

Regarding when to turn, if it's not on a SID or in the clearance or noise abatement procedure, using the altitude for a circling MDA will work. Regarding how steep to bank, 25 degrees or standard rate, whichever comes first.

In this case “when to turn” was somewhat dictated by the clearance of within 1/2 mile of departure end. The altitude you reach at that point is somewhat variable.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2019, 21:37

Username Protected wrote:

A CJ2 I fly has a NICAD battery. A couple cells went bad. Cost to replace a cell? $1k. 22 cells....holy schnikes! :bugeye:

That's why lead acid batteries are popular. There is an STC to change it over.

Also, NiCads have bad thermal runaway behavior. I've experienced it once. Unless I flew in very cold temperatures often, I'd switch to lead acid. So much safer.

One of the ways NiCads go bad is when there is a weak cell in a string and it gets over charged. Swapping in new and old cells is the perfect way to achieve that, and that is what your are about to do...

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2019, 00:09

The CJ2 I fly has a lead acid battery and it gets replaced every year, Pro Parts cost is around $4500. It would last a lot longer than a year but we do to many battery starts from airports with no services to risk a bad battery.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2019, 03:24

Username Protected wrote:

A CJ2 I fly has a NICAD battery. A couple cells went bad. Cost to replace a cell? $1k. 22 cells....holy schnikes! :bugeye:

Both my CJ2s were switched to lead acid batteries when they had a Nicad cell fail. I think a lead acid battery is about $5K. Starts just as well and can be recharged easier.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2019, 08:19

The Gill or the Concordes we use run $2700 and the same battery goes in the CJ’s. We are getting about three years out of them.

Gary

Flying the Citation II