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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why is there a difference in the fuel price? Did the fuel stop have really cheap fuel and with the G100 you over flew this stop and ended up paying more per gallon? Sure looks like it would been a much easier trip in the G100!


Ya...I assumed that I would just top at KVNY. At SDL we get fuel for $2.50 gallon vs $3.22 at KVNY. Truth is we could have made it to KSDL in the G100 w/o fueling at KVNY. Here are the numbers showing the trip back to KSDL.o


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:50 
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When I had the MU2, I had a trade show in Reno. We did it round trip, four legs. The following year, I did the same trip in the Beechjet. I still had to stop, so again, four legs. I don't remember the flight time comparison off the top of my head, but total flight time in the Beechjet round trip was less than the CLE-AIA-RNO one way in the MU2. Those longer legs really show the speed difference. Plus, the bonus, with the SPX there would be no fuel stop.

I seriously considered the Astra, but 95% of my trips are 1000nm or less. I think the all in costs per hour would be more with the Astra and wouldn't benefit me hugely over the Beechjet. It's faster by ~30 kts. (M.78 vs. M.82), much longer range and has a steering wheel.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:52 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
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Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
How did you like JJ being there? Could it grow on you?


A copilot or JJ specifically? A great copilot is a wonderful asset. Great one’s are hard to find. JJ can fly with me anytime he wants. All he has to do is to drop everything and be ready to go at drop of a hat. He would tire of me quickly. :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 23:22 
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Joined: 05/23/08
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Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
Aircraft: TBM - C185 - T206
BTDT, had to overfly my customs stop because of weather.
Lots of question ask when I landed at my alternate and had to wait an hour for customs to drive to the airport but nothing came out of it. I dont remember that it was an AOE.







Username Protected wrote:
Specific to the issue about landing at Customs in KICT. This was a huge win for us and it saved a stop and likely a couple hours. Thanks again Mark B.

Suppose that for some reason we determined that we couldn’t make it into KICT. We had plenty of legal alternatives it’s just none offered Customs. A couple questions...1)should the fact we needed Customs be factored into the legal definition of an alternative. Namely enough fuel to miss and go to an airport that had Customs ? If so should you get landing rights at your alternate and tell them they are just an alternate? (You have to get a Customs official to grant you landing rights prior to arrival). 2) suppose we decided the winds and weather prevented us from landing at a Customs airport. How do you choose where to land, what do you do when you land (at 3am), how big a goat rodeo do you think it becomes? This was going through our minds. WTF do we do? What are the ramifications? Consider our pax. A huge delay messes their schedule up and attracts a lot of attention. “Rockers land at 3am at non-Customs Airport”. Some real TMZ stuff. The unknown could have forced a gethomeits type scenario. Imagine CRM issues. Jesse saying let’s not risk it and land somewhere else. Me saying FT we got to make it cause it is almost worse than death if we don’t. Trust me if the first time you think about it is enroute beyond the “point of no return” it ain’t good. Reminds me a bit of that soccer flight accident in South America.

Not an issue you hear every day! BT strikes again.


I would pick the closest airport that I could safely land and call customs on the ground. Tell them what happened and that you have not yet opened the cabin door. Yup, it'd be a goat rodeo.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 07:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
How did you like JJ being there? Could it grow on you?


A copilot or JJ specifically? A great copilot is a wonderful asset. Great one’s are hard to find. JJ can fly with me anytime he wants. All he has to do is to drop everything and be ready to go at drop of a hat. He would tire of me quickly. :rofl:


Well no offense to JJ but I meant a copilot in general. Of course in the 100 that will be a a given.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 09:23 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
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Username Protected wrote:

A copilot or JJ specifically? A great copilot is a wonderful asset. Great one’s are hard to find. JJ can fly with me anytime he wants. All he has to do is to drop everything and be ready to go at drop of a hat. He would tire of me quickly. :rofl:


Well no offense to JJ but I meant a copilot in general. Of course in the 100 that will be a a given.


Certain flights (like this one) an SIC is a must. I also use an SIC for flights with clients or suppliers. Just don’t feel right not giving them an out if something happens to the iceman.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 09:29 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Username Protected wrote:
Jets are designed such that after V1 you fly regardless of what happens.

Well, mostly.

Counter example: the Gulfstream at KBED, well past V1, did not abort.

There are still reasons to abort above V1, so the "V1, must fly" requirement is not absolute, you still need a flyable airplane.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 09:36 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Username Protected wrote:
Jets are designed such that after V1 you fly regardless of what happens.

Well, mostly.

Counter example: the Gulfstream at KBED, well past V1, did not abort.

There are still reasons to abort above V1, so the "V1, must fly" requirement is not absolute, you still need a flyable airplane.

Mike C.


It was more a general statement. There are a very few exceptions. KBED being most notable.

If you successfully complete a preflight checklist the chances of not flying at V1 dwindle to nearly zero.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 11:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Well, mostly.

Counter example: the Gulfstream at KBED, well past V1, did not abort.

There are still reasons to abort above V1, so the "V1, must fly" requirement is not absolute, you still need a flyable airplane.

Mike C.


It was more a general statement. There are a very few exceptions. KBED being most notable.

If you successfully complete a preflight checklist the chances of not flying at V1 dwindle to nearly zero.

Exactly. V1 is not a negotiable number. The KBED example is a bad one. They didn’t successfully complete the the pretakeoff checklist, which created subsequent jeopardy.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 12:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
Exactly. V1 is not a negotiable number. The KBED example is a bad one. They didn’t successfully complete the the pretakeoff checklist, which created subsequent jeopardy.


Aborting past V1 you negotiate with the end of the runway. V1 ensures you have the planned stop distance.

With the KBED Gulfstream accident they handled the whole situation badly. Once they saw they didn't fly at Vr they had a few seconds of confusion where they accelerated more rather then immediately slapping the throttles closed.

In Citations V1 and Vr are close together in dry takeoffs. When V1 and Vr are far apart there is more of a problem when the aircraft will not fly at Vr.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 12:54 
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Also, the KBED accident crew had several opportunities (something is not right) to abort prior to V1 and did not. I wonder what it would have taken to get them to abort.

One of the reasons that V1 is really trained as non-negotiable is time. The time that it takes to run the info through your mind and trouble-shoot is longer than the time available. It is better to have absolutes to use will keep you safe 99.9999999% of the time. Not following these absolutes have a better chance of biting you in the ass than not.

Obviously, in any airplane, if you realize you are not going to fly and you are going to crash, it is best to close the power levers. That should be a memory item:

PRIOR TO CRASH: REDUCE POWER ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 13:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
2. Of the two options, I’d rather stretch a known quantity (fuel) knowing we are headed to good weather where improvising was possible VS maintain an EXTRA reserve and fly into unknown ceilings thereby blowing through that extra fuel with a missed approach and leaving yourself with no room to improvise.


That's some solid risk assessment to me. It isn't only the safety margin you are concerned about but the variance of the risk factor in relation to the margin.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 13:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
Great trip report, gentlemen.


Good job teaching, Mark.


My fav moment was on departure. At V1 a turbo jet pilot must remove their hand from power levers and place it on the yoke. Piston drivers NEVER get this right at first. They are always ready to chop power amd keep it in the ground. Jets are designed such that after V1 you fly regardless of what happens. If your hand doesn’t move off the power levers you will risk chopping power. In the video I knock Jesse’s hand off the power levers. My copilot in the SIM at simcom did the same to me. Lol. I was so shocked. Payback is fun!


Going through 121 training now at Mesa Airlines, it's a habit that's hard to loose but your correct.....at V1 your leaving the ground REGARDLESS if the engine is on fire or whatever.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 16:06 
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Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Opportunity:Citation trip from Scottsdale to DFW airline home tomorrow 22nd. Leave at 1pm. Who is in!

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 20:08 
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Joined: 06/28/11
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Good thing these jet jockeys aborted above V1:
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-release ... 70322.aspx

NTSB Issues Investigative Update on Rejected Takeoff, Runway Excursion
3/22/2017

​WASHINGTON (March 22, 2017) — The National Transportation Safety Board issued an investigative update for the March 8, 2017, rejected takeoff and runway excursion at Willow Run Airport, Ypsilanti, Michigan.

All 109 passengers and seven crewmembers evacuated Ameristar Air Cargo Inc., flight 9363 via escape slides after the Boeing MD-83 came to rest about 1,000 feet past the end of runway 23L. One passenger sustained a minor injury during the evacuation.

This update does not provide probable cause for the accident and does not contain analysis of information collected thus far in the NTSB’s ongoing investigation. As such, no conclusions regarding the cause of the incident should be made from this preliminary information.

The following facts are provided as an investigative update:

Parties to the investigation include the Federal Aviation Administration, The Boeing Company and Ameristar Air Cargo, Inc.
Both pilots held airline transport pilot certificates with DC-9-series type ratings (this rating includes the MD-83).
The pilot-in-command, who was the Ameristar chief pilot, was in the right seat and was providing differences training to the captain, who was in the left seat and was the pilot flying the aircraft.
The Ameristar chief pilot had 9,660 total flight hours, with 2,462 hours in DC 9 series airplanes. The captain (flying pilot) had 15,518 total flight hours, with 8,495 hours in DC-9-series airplanes.

MD-83 elevator diagram

(In this NTSB graphic, one of two elevators of the MD-83 involved in the March 8, 2017, rejected takeoff and runway excursion at Willow Run Airport, Ypsilanti, Michigan, is diagrammed. The elevators are the primary means of controlling the airplane’s pitch.)

Post-accident examination revealed movement of the control column in the cockpit appeared normal; the control columns were free to move, and the elevator control tabs moved as commanded. However, when investigators tried to move the elevator surfaces by hand, the left elevator moved normally, but the right elevator was jammed in a trailing edge-down position (airplane nose down). Upon further inspection, the right elevator geared tab inboard pushrod linkage was found damaged which restricted movement of the right elevator surface but allowed movement of the control tab. After the damaged components were removed, the elevator could be moved by hand.

MD-83 displaced geared tab linkage

(This March 10, 2017, NTSB image depicts the displaced inboard elevator geared tab linkage, highlighted by the arrow, from Ameristar Air Cargo Inc., flight 9363. The red piece of metal is included in the image for reference only an is not part of the elevator system).

Examination of the flight data recorder data indicates that during the taxi and take-off roll, the left elevator moved normally, but the right elevator did not move. During takeoff roll, the left elevator began a large airplane nose-up movement (consistent with rotation) at an airspeed of about 152 knots and continued for five seconds to about 166 knots. There was no change in the airplane pitch attitude during this time. The airplane data then are consistent with the takeoff being rejected. The maximum recorded airspeed was about 173 knots.
Review of previous flight data showed normal movement of both the left and right elevator surfaces. The airplane flew to Ypsilanti two days before the accident.
The flight and cabin crewmembers indicated in post-accident statements that all slides except for the forward right door deployed correctly. The slide was removed from the airplane and will be examined by investigators at a future date.

No further updates are planned for this investigation. The docket for the investigation will be opened to the public prior to release of the final report. NTSB investigations generally take 12 to 18 months to complete. The preliminary report for the investigation is available online at http://go.usa.gov/xXkVK.


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