I won’t pick up anything without electric trim.

Riddle me this Batman?

Can a SPE guy fly pic sp from the right seat with a non typed pilot learning to be an sic and pic in the left? I thought sure. I have heard...maybe not?

Braintrust? Go

My first question would be whether the particular aircraft can be flown (reaching all flight critical items) from the copilot seat. If flying alone, can it be done from the copilot seat? If a pilot/trainer cannot realistically fly the aircraft from the copilot seat how can he realistically be acting as PIC?

At some point on the continuum, letting the SIC applicant do all the flying morphs into dual instruction. The actual flying requirements for SIC are pretty benign under the Regulation.

I have not researched it, but I am sure this cat has been skinned before. There really. is no original thought in aviation training. I think the CFR is current below, I just googled it. I see the flights are to be done in daytime VFR or daytime IFR conditions. As always, YMMV, probably someone out there in BT land with actual experience on this issue.


§ 61.55 Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and

(3) At least a pilot type rating for the aircraft being flown unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within the United States airspace.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested -

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.

(iv) Flight manual.

(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes -

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

(iii) Crew resource management training.

(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.

(d) A person may receive a second-in-command pilot type rating for an aircraft after satisfactorily completing the second-in-command familiarization training requirements under paragraph (b) of this section in that type of aircraft provided the training was completed within the 12 calendar months before the month of application for the SIC pilot type rating. The person must comply with the following application and pilot certification procedures:

(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with § 61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”

(3) If the applicant's flight experience and/or training records are in an electronic form, the applicant must present a paper copy of those records containing the signature of the trainer or qualified management official to a Flight Standards office or Examiner.

(4) The applicant must complete and sign an Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1, and present the application to a Flight Standards office or to an Examiner.

(5) The person who provided the ground and flight training to the applicant must sign the “Instructor's Recommendation” section of the Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's FAA Form 8710-1.

(6) The applicant must appear in person at a Flight Standards office or to an Examiner with his or her logbook/training records and with the completed and signed FAA Form 8710-1.

(7) There is no practical test required for the issuance of the “SIC Privileges Only” pilot type rating.

(e) A person may receive a second-in-command pilot type rating for the type of aircraft after satisfactorily completing an approved second-in-command training program, proficiency check, or competency check under subpart K of part 91, part 125, or part 135, as appropriate, in that type of aircraft provided the training was completed within the 12 calendar months before the month of application for the SIC pilot type rating. The person must comply with the following application and pilot certification procedures:

(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with § 61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”

(3) If the applicant's flight experience and/or training records are in an electronic form, the applicant must provide a paper copy of those records containing the signature of the trainer or qualified management official to a Flight Standards office, an Examiner, or an Aircrew Program Designee.

(4) The applicant must complete and sign an Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1, and present the application to a Flight Standards office or to an Examiner or to an authorized Aircrew Program Designee.

(5) The person who provided the ground and flight training to the applicant must sign the “Instructor's Recommendation” section of the Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710-1. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's FAA Form 8710-1.

(6) The applicant must appear in person at a Flight Standards office or to an Examiner or to an authorized Aircrew Program Designee with his or her logbook/training records and with the completed and signed FAA Form 8710-1.

(7) There is no practical test required for the issuance of the “SIC Privileges Only” pilot type rating.

(f) The familiarization training requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to a person who is:

(1) Designated and qualified as pilot in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;

(2) Designated as the second in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;

(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or

(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by § 91.109 of this chapter.

(g) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:

(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and

(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.

(h) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:

(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and

(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.

(i) The training under paragraphs (b) and (d) of this section and the training, proficiency check, and competency check under paragraph (e) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved training course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter or under subpart K of part 91, part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(j) When an applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft receives all the training in a flight simulator, that applicant must satisfactorily complete one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought. This requirement does not apply to an applicant who completes a proficiency check under part 121 or competency check under subpart K, part 91, part 125, or part 135 for the particular type of aircraft.

Read your SPE, I bet it has this statement in it:

"This exemption is valid only for aircraft configured for operation by a single pilot seated in the left pilot seat."

I believe you need to be an instructor and act as a required crew member (that is, not under SPE) to do as you ask.

Mike C.

First question - who is the legal PIC? Does your SPE require the PIC to operate from the left seat?

If no SPE seat restriction then you are good to go.

If you have an SPE seat restriction and you occupy the right seat then you have a 2 crew operation. In that case an ATP can use 61.167 training privileges to be training the other pilot.

The wrinkle with 61.167 is it says:



Some people interpret "in air transportation service" as meaning only when associated with a PT135 or 121 operation and a PT 91 ATP cannot exercise these privileges. I have never seen a FAA legal interpretation on this.

The other question will be what your insurance company will be comfortable with and how an accident with a non-rated pilot in the left seat will be handled.

First question - who is the legal PIC? Does your SPE require the PIC to operate from the left seat?

If no SPE seat restriction then you are good to go.

If you have an SPE seat restriction and you occupy the right seat then you have a 2 crew operation. In that case an ATP can use 61.167 training privileges to be training the other pilot.

The wrinkle with 61.167 is it says:



Some people interpret "in air transportation service" as meaning only when associated with a PT135 or 121 operation and a PT 91 ATP cannot exercise these privileges. I have never seen a FAA legal interpretation on this.

The other question will be what your insurance company will be comfortable with and how an accident with a non-rated pilot in the left seat will be handled.

Ok...here is what I have discovered.

1) Any type rated guy can act as the trainer in the aircraft he is typed in if it is for SIC training purposes. Don't even need an ATP. I knew this from another post on BT.
Signed a guy off and the FSDO was fine with it.

2) Mike C is correct that the SPE requires the pilot who is acting a a SP PIC must sit left seat.

3)No one I have talked with has been able to answer whether or not the SIC trainer must be seated in the left seat.

4) Allen W is likely right that insurance has a preference.


I like it. A real brain teaser.

I would do the SIC training with SPE in left and SIC trainee in right. Once the SIC is signed off and legal then you can shift to crew mode and have SIC fly left and PIC fly right for left seat training. Both those operations are clearly legal.

Mark, if what you're saying is that any type rated pilot can train another pilot (even for sic) in that type aircraft even when it's certified for two pilots, that sounds off to me.

I would do the SIC training with SPE in left and SIC trainee in right. Once the SIC is signed off and legal then you can shift to crew mode and have SIC fly left and PIC fly right for left seat training. Both those operations are clearly legal.

Mark is correct. I have given 3 SIC type ratings in the last 3 months in two pilot airplane. I sign the IACRA and we go to the FSDO for type. Here is the legal interpretation.

Mark, if what you're saying is that any type rated pilot can train another pilot (even for sic) in that type aircraft even when it's certified for two pilots, that sounds off to me.

Paul:

I mean this with all due respect. I kind of feel it myself from time to time. Sometimes it seems like you “look away” for a moment and everything you grew up has changed when you look back. Crew vs SP. coffin corner margins. Fuel economy at FL450. Who can teach in turbojets?

I feel you brother.

You add value. Don’t ever think otherwise.

Mark is correct. I have given 3 SIC type ratings in the last 3 months in two pilot airplane. I sign the IACRA and we go to the FSDO for type. Here is the legal interpretation.

That's OK Mark, time has not changed my view of Part 91 turbo jet operations. The old saying will always be true "just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's safe." As you know, I didn't write that rule, people with more experience and wisdom than I did; I just happen to agree with them.